I get the impression that there are a lot of people who bought shares that only care about price speculation and aren’t interested in working to build a successful business. Either that, or they do believe in Nu, but are leeching off the efforts of others while doing nothing themselves. A minority of shareholders however are interested and realize the potential of Nu. The minority are regular forum posters and perhaps people who regularly vote behind the scenes. We’re held back though by the fact that we need to baby the majority of shareholders in order to get anything done.
Babying the majority includes things like making data feeds auto-install, alerting them when they need to upgrade and simply begging them on the forum to do what they’re supposed to be doing with threads like this one. If we didn’t have data feeds, we’d be dead in the water.
All shareholders should take an interest in helping to build a successful business, but I guess it’s unreasonable to expect that. People are lazy and try to do the least amount of work possible, so it seems that we’ll always have this problem and will need to cater to lazy shareholders by designing technology like frequency voting that allows the minority to run the business without letting the lazy shareholders bring down the whole thing. Either that or we support something like the BKS proposal @masterOfDisaster introduced, where we drop the dead weight by diluting lazy shareholders and increasing the equity of active shareholders, making the current active minority the new majority.
I was in a conversation with @Sentinelrv, which might have helped spawning this thread.
To add a little drama to this post, here’s an extended quote from my last post in that private conversation.
I think it fits well to this topic.
Thank you, @Sentinelrv for not disclosing it.
And here was the response I just replied with…
[quote=Sentinelrv]I posted a thread yelling at the lazy shareholders to get with the program and raise parking rates…
I have a feeling the majority of them don’t dig into the discussion threads to find out what is going on, so I’m hoping they will see the thread title and realize what is going on. It’s like we need to take the news to them in order for them to do anything about it. Hopefully they at least visit the forum to see it.
I see you are majorly discouraged. I believe whether we are in Nu or a traditional company, this laziness and selfishness will exist in a lot of people, so it’s not like we can escape it. When I get in a negative mood because of things like this, I just try to remind myself what I am doing this all for and that usually helps keep me on track. It’s about half and half for me, the amount of money I could earn, plus the better future crypto could bring to people around the world. Also, I’ve come too far just to stop now. I’ve spent more than 3 years of my life on this stuff now and am fully invested. I don’t know what else I would do if I stopped. Also, I remember from the book Think & Grow Rich the story of the guy who stopped digging 3 feet from gold and lost everything. It’s short, read it here…
As I said above, this apathy is most likely going to exist to some degree in any business you are in, whether it’s crypto or traditional, so there’s no escaping it. Either we’re going to have to cater toward lazy shareholders with technology like @Nagalim’s frequency voting or we’re going to have to punish them by diluting their shares and making the active minority the new majority.
I don’t share this perspective. Data feeds were discussed extensively in the whitepaper which is now 2 years old. They are an important part of the original design, for good reason.
A Peershare won’t succeed if it depends on shareholders being well informed of operational details. Fortunately, that has never been the plan, as I see it.
The problems we are seeing with apathy among B&C Exchange shareholders and the much more minor problem we see with NuShare holders is simply our cue that it is time to prioritise data feed development, particularly default data feeds. I am confident that the easy to develop release I proposed here will be available soon and the difficulties we are facing now in regards to shareholder apathy will be mostly forgotten as they become irrelevant. We can do something similar in the NuBit 2.2 release.
So, let’s get default data feeds out and let the poor shareholders sleep. Owning NuShares or BlockShares doesn’t have to be a time consuming affair. It is OK to buy shares and sit on them, completely ignoring what is going on until you are ready to sell. With upgrades being prompted by default data feeds in the next release for each network, shareholders can even mint without paying attention to what is going on.
Those of you posting in this forum who are paying close attention are very much needed. We need a lot of people like that to attend to the operation of our networks and provide data feeds to others.
Let’s be careful about sending the message that to be a shareholder takes a lot of ongoing effort. That would be unattractive to most would be shareholders. We can, and should, cheerfully accommodate the apathy of most shareholders with default data feeds. It will work.
As you see almost all FLOT members are exhausted of all this manual work to maintain the peg. Could you imagine to maintain the peg with 1 billion $ liquidity. Or 10 billion $. Mission impossible.
We need automation of maintaining the peg. I think it is time the Nu Architect @JordanLee to share his vision about possibilities to solve this problem.
Personally, I like @Benjamin’s proposal, but I would like to hear others thoughts.
You don’t have to. But it’s hard to deny the fact that a majority of NSR aren’t even used for minting and those who are, are used by people who either don’t configure votes manually or register data feeds.
It’s good to have data feeds. But they need to be used.
What for, if those who need to listen, don’t listen; if those who need to care, don’t care?
It’s frustrating to see NSR holders not doing a minimum for the well-being of Nu, which is to mint and register a data feed.
It can be very little effort if done right:
- keep the client up-to-date
- register data feed
How much of that is done by way too many shareholders can be seen at the current Nu (park rates rising too slowly) and BCE (protocol 4.0 voted at 41.2% (block 413,208)) situation.
…if the corporation the shareholders own lasts long enough.
You don’t only have to cater for shareholders.
You have to cater for those who keep the system running, those who are involved in the operational business (in which the shareholders aren’t interested in) running.
I meant it when I said I’m considering my retirement from FLOT. It’s a lot of work for little money against an opposition of not caring shareholders. Tilting at windmills is tiring.
The only reason why I haven’t done it already is because of idealistic lunacy.
This would be nice to hear from @JordanLee.
Despite operating with an extremely meager budget, the pace of innovation in liquidity operations has been dizzying. Things are changing and improving so fast it is hard to remain aware of the current state of liquidity operations. Since release just a year and a half ago, we have taken most of the counterparty risk out of liquidity operations, pools were developed and NuLagoon Tube was developed. Then FLOT became a reality, the first operation of its kind among blockchain networks. There’s also ALix that helps us track real time and historical liquidity statistics. Then gateways appeared. Very recently, we have witnessed total liquidity rise as the spreads collapse along with costs. Its a very positive picture. All of this innovation was created with very little money. Its a performance we should be proud of.
In regard to FLOT members being exhausted: being on call for multisig signing isn’t for everyone. I think it is a few signings a week. That’s actually not a lot of manual work. Few businesses operate with the level of automation we do. Still, I’m sure it can be automated somewhat. That isn’t my priority right now. If you are a FLOT member and you don’t feel like you are being compensated enough, then demand more compensation. Shareholders will either approve it or you can be replaced by someone who feels good about participating with things as they are.
I see a lot of expressions of bear market sentiment here. Smart investors discipline themselves to move opposite of the crowd: buy amidst fear and panic, sell when there is euphoria.
It’s fine that most shares aren’t minting. It creates a lucrative opportunity for those that do. Without looking at numbers right now, I believe minters are making around an 8% annual return in block rewards.
The evidence that most NuShare minters are configuring their votes is quite strong.
I can see a lot of frustration @masterOfDisaster. You have done great work for our network and blockchain innovation. Everybody has the privilege of negotiating their involvement here so that it is something positive that benefits all involved.
There is no way to “wake up” the sleeping beauties no matter how loud we shout
We just have to make NU “ignores” them
I had written this before Jordan’s 1st post in this thread and didn’t want to see it go to waste…
[quote=Sentinelrv]This actually reminds me of what happened to my enthusiasm for politics. If you read my profile you’d know I was a big Ron Paul guy. I was really excited the 1st and 2nd time he ran, but between the media’s blackout and the Republican establishment’s dirty tricks to destroy his chances, I lost all faith in the political process. The biggest factor though was the complete ignorance and lack of care of the majority of people about the importance of the issues he was talking about. Everyone I talked to just didn’t care or were too lazy to learn more (sounds like some people we know).
I went from actively contributing and talking to people about the ideas of liberty to downgrading my opinion of humanity and keeping my ideas to myself. When Ron Paul’s son ran this cycle I just wasn’t as excited due to everything that had happened before and he actually ended up doing worse than his father. I still deeply care about the issues he talked about, but I no long have any delusions that the majority of people are going to wake up one day and realize these things, therefore I’m less inclined to go out of my way and waste time on it.
In our case, the regular forum goers are similar to the Ron Paul supporters, excited and believing in what they’re doing, working long hours for free if necessary. And the majority of NuShareholders are like the public, ignorant, lazy and not caring. While it’s very discouraging to find this same behavior in a decentralized organization, I haven’t lost all faith yet like I did with politics. The main reason is because we can still use technology like data feeds and frequency voting to subvert the negative influence of apathetic shareholders, where in real life we can’t.
Another factor which is probably increasing apathy is the lack of profit shareholders have earned since Nu started. If we were making regular profit now like we hope to be in the future, (for example, monthly dividends) I believe we would see a lot more shareholders interested in contributing, whether it’s free or paid work. It’s hard to get people to constantly work to solve problems like we’re doing when there is only a hope of reward in the future.
B&C Exchange may be a little different once it goes live and trading fees start coming in. Right now people are apathetic because there is nothing for them to do. Once they start getting rewarded on a regular basis, I would imagine they would want to do what they can to protect that revenue stream and become more involved, though it could be wishful thinking on my part as well.
The same can’t be said about Nu at the moment, since it’s mostly all work with no immediate reward, unless of course you ask for compensation. Anyway, I hope that we can find a way to reduce the negative influence of apathetic shareholders, whether through subversion techniques like data feeds and frequency voting or punishment tactics like share dilution.[/quote]
Now that Jordan has responded, I’m willing to go along with default data feeds to try and subvert the negative influence of apathetic minters. Let’s see how that solution works out before we resort to more extreme measures such as dilution. Once Nu 2.2 releases with this feature, it would probably be a good idea for more data feed providers to pop up. We don’t want feeds to be too centralized.
This is not what’s exhausting.
Rubberstamping tx is thanks to @ttutdxh and Cointoolkit easy.
Tracking the liquidity situation, the ALP status, the status of the gateways, trying to find out what’s going on, what’s necessary to do, how much funds to put where is tiring.
Others fight at bter, because of price feeds that are just off from other markets, pool operators struggling with pool software, etc.
A lot of the work that’s done isn’t recognized, because it leads to no action. If the liquidity assessment is “looking good”, then nothing happens, no tx gets created.
That part of the work stays behind the scenes.
Do you think tx at the right point of time appear out of nowhere all of a sudden?
Or gateways at the most important exchange are thought of by chance?
Or a paradigm shift of the liquidity provision scheme (that yet needs to happen)?
Or frequency voting, seeded auctions, fixed cost compensation (improved to CRFC), etc.?
All of that is the result of trying to get a grasp of a complex market and trying to adapt to it.
Yet attempts to move some of the decisions to NSR holders are not as successful as they should be (I suppose mostly, because there’s too much minting without attention and without data feeds).
With regard to liquidity we have no reliable thresholds, no triggered actions, no guide what to do when. We have bits and pieces, but no complete framework that describes the interaction between all the tiers of the liquidity provision scheme in a way that you know what to do when. That needs automation.
Most is done by discretion of FLOT.
If FLOT liquidity activity can be reduced to rubberstamping tx most of the time, it’s sustainable.
This liquidity scheme isn’t scalable without more automation.
Managing bigger amounts of cirulating US-NBT will be a pain without it.
I can’t imagine how Nu shall handle EU-NBT, CN-NBT, X-NBT…
This has nothing to do with bear market sentiment.
This is no economical frustration, but rather a political one.
Because there is.
Do I really expect too much, if I want NSR holders to keep clients up-to-date and mint with registered data feeds?
Which would be the bare minimum to deal with the current situation without too much struggle.
the problem isnt with shareholders not voting imo, it is with the minting (voting) nushareholders, who aren’t voting on anything, default datafeed could help in this situation, or if you change the way the voting goes. Like, you say all empty votes are for all the current motions instead of against. Idk if this is really possible, you would have to … yeah idk maybe all motions should be accepted by default, and you only vote when you are against it? idk it is complicated
Did somebody say “panic”? That’s my middle name!
What about this idea: in order to enable minting in the client, you need to select a data feed (or acknowledge that you are voting against everything).
I like this. Of course, i will always argue for frequency voting over default data feeds, but this would make me feel much more comfortable with default data feeds. I am very much against having a single default feed or voting yes on all motions by default.
Great. I propose to pay me one million. hashed and submitted. please be apathetic.
yeah i know it wasnt well thought through will go back to school
Currently no rates for the 1.5 month duration only has 9% support. This means 91% of minters (by share days destroyed) have configured their vote either manually or by data feed.
Shareholders minting with unconfigured votes is a small problem very much under control at the present.
I’m glad to see that it was possible to awake them.
I’m not going to rant, that this shouldn’t be necessary at all etc.
It’s reassuring to see that it still works.