I’m actually more concerned about what @Dhume brought up in his thread.
He’s put forward some direct and fair questions, that apparently you’ve failed to answer before.
Are you unwilling to answer these questions?
Avoiding the questions following Sentinelrv’s post seems unlikely to be productive.
This kind of rough calculation is what’s given me belief that the model could work.
I’ll try to make a start. I have basic experience from doing models for my startup business, but I’m by no means an expert, but it would be better than nothing & others could easily improve upon it.
I have little time, but will try to start something marginal better than back of the envelope calculations
Oh, I asked a lot of questions, but all it got me was being insulted, accused, discredited and with regards to the questions mostly ignored.
Some see a pattern, others don’t.
There’s no transparency that’s useful for accounting. It’s only a loose-leaf-collection with no total balances.
@Phoenix might provide a balance sheet if he can.
But it’s not that you could request that from the Chief of Liquidity operations.
When talking about the revenue from spread I was focussing on net asset value. I’m aware that there can be made peasnuts from spread. While earning those peanuts, you lose big time NAV (valued in USD) serving the NBT/BTC trading pair. Risk of losing Nu funds goes on top.
If you want to have an idea how much money Nu loses, you can have a look at the liquidity provision that was done with pools. The order fo magnitude of losses from trading is close to the fees paid for liquidity provision.
Strangely he gets away with it. But as we now he has majority of voting power in the Nu network - who could draft a motion that’s not in favor of @Phoenix that has a chance to pass?
It might be different in the B&C network. For all we know, the distribution of shares there is better than in the Nu network. It’s good that no BKS were left under control of a single person:
Maybe they could have been used in an emergency, driving across a red light and getting away with it?
Have you ever tried to imagine how much money could be moved from Nu investors into the pockets of the purported scammer?
I’m talking about the buybacks during which money was distributed to early investors. That money was obtained from people who joined the Nu club later.
Have you ever tried to imagine how much money was moved from B&C to Nu? First step: assets (BTC) from B&C were traded for NBT (by what motion? anyone?). Later NBT were traded for NSR. Another bad trade, but at least for that there was a motion.
From a distant view I see ways on which lots of money (I’m talking hundreds of thousands of USD value!) have been channeled from Nu and B&C investors and Nu customers to Nu early investors, or maybe I should say: founders.
As long as there are future investors/customers to be milked, this Ponzi scheme will go on.
Watch the introduction of CN-NBT etc.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda…
the first 1.5 years Nu made a total of 254 NBT from fees.
I don’t think there is substantial shareholder interest in the kind of questions @Sentinelrv is asking. They seem like a very desperate attempt to create a negative narrative that starts with feelings of anger over financial loss. I’m actually quite proud of how ridiculous the accusations against me sound. No one has been able to articulate anything nefarious that I may have done. Instead, I am unfairly accused of minor violations.
Anyone is free to test my hypothesis that shareholders aren’t interested in me doing the work to entertain these questions. Just propose a motion asking me to answer any question you like. I’d answer if there was even modest minority support for such a motion. I don’t think it will happen.
I’m not very concerned about the questions of those who have demonstrated they want to harm the network and stop its growth. That would just be a distraction from good work, and allowing your enemy to control the agenda. Shareholders expect better from me.
What about starting here:
I could ask for a motion that empowered you to trade the B&C development BTC funds for NBT.
But I already know that you’d either evade that question at all, sling mud at me or point to @JordanLee as the one who did that.
It’s so convenient that he left. How could you be responsible for things he did?
I could ask so many more questions. I already did.
You are very good at laying smoke-screens.
But you can’t hide all behind that.
Maybe you have a little balance sheet to entertain the masses?
Is a nice offer considering that you control the network.
Meanwhile you have something to lose. The Ponzi must survive another round. Otherwise you are a bagholder of worthless NSR.
I understand that you are afraid.
What harms the network is that there’s no prospect of revenue. That’s mainly your fault and not the fault of those who point that out
All Bitcoin, Litecoin and Peercoin proceeds will be converted to NuBits.
the only chance for nu to succeed is to distribute shares. so in this sense printing nushares is not bad…
Well, then it was fair play and the B&C investors knew that they’d not only be technically (loosely), but economically (tightly) as well tied to Nu.
That makes one of the questions answered. Only so many more remain…
Right, as long as they can be sold the Ponzi scheme can continue.
Slowly but surely you understand this game…
What’s bad is the end of the Ponzi scheme that goes along with the collapse and many unhappy bagholders.
LOOL I can see you giggling in front of your computer while writing your entertaining stuff. It’s just great
What did I just get done saying here…
Standard tactics from a scammer or somebody who can’t win an argument. Attack the person in order to avoid the subject. If you have no logical argument that can win people over, just continue deflecting and making it all about the other person instead of yourself.
I’ve been here since the very beginning and supported Nu with all I had. How could anyone think that I want to harm it? Would someone who wanted the network to fail do all this?
It was the sheer amount of shadiness in your behavior and avoidance of important topics that slowly put me off to Nu. I would have loved nothing more than to see it to succeed. I would have loved nothing more than for you to explain in detail your model and do a question and answer session with everyone here. But I know that you won’t do this, because you can’t without making it obvious that you don’t have the answers that people think you do. At this point I’m just trying my best to draw people’s attention to the characteristics of your scammer-like behavior, avoidance, ad hominem attacks, slander. There are people here that I care about that are going to be harmed and I want to wake them up to the fact that you are hiding something.
Of course the one person who represents the majority of the network can claim that shareholders have no interest in transparency. Does anybody here actually believe that shareholders of a corporation would have no interest in anything but absolute transparency when it comes to the management of their funds? How dumb do you think we are? You are losing control of the narrative you’ve tried so desperately to spin in everyone’s minds through propaganda and it’s starting to crack under the pressure of increased scrutiny. You have no choice but to deflect, deflect and deflect some more in order to preserve your story.
What normal person who was not hiding something extremely sinister behind the scenes would spend months and months of their precious time debating with people and avoiding questions of importance rather than just taking a couple minutes out of their day to set the record straight?
I call bullshit! You are attempting to defraud everyone here.
Thank you so much for pointing this out. Now we know the reason for the identity switch. It’s so obvious now. Everything is starting to make sense. As Phoenix he can’t be held liable for what Jordan did or answer any of the important questions that we all need to know, most importantly this from @Dhume …
I feel an important question that hasnt been asked yet is where did all the BKS funding go?
At the time Jordan (@Phoenix) estimated 200,000 USD in funding would be needed to complete the project. A total of $320,764 was raised in the crowdsale. Yet Jordan (@Phoenix) reports here that only 122,288 US-NBT Nubits are left (mind you several thousand Nubits of that ammount were acctually generated by parking). That means over 200,000 USD has been “spend” on the project.
Remarkably Jordan stated in late February that:
Progress has been slower than expected because developers (most of whom had agreed to work about half time) haven’t put in the quantity of hours that were discussed when the project began. Fortunately, this means little funding has been consumed, so we get another chance without needing any additional funding. The best way to resolve the issue is to simply require full time developers, so they don’t have any other work competing for their time and attention. Additionally, these two full time developers won’t be working on the NuBit project at all. There has been a dynamic where the shared team for B&C Exchange and NuBits tends to put more time than expected on NuBits because it is a live and operational network, which means issues tend to seem more urgent than they do for the not yet operational B&C Exchange.
How is it possible that 200,000 USD in funding have been spend and yet the project is far from finished. Even more remarkable is that according to Jordan in late February only “little funding has been consumed”. Yet so much funding is gone now where did this money go?
Last week I asked @Eleven whether he was still working on B&C and he told me he was on vacation but was now ready to get back to work. I asked him to put the development on hold until we have a proper plan.[/quote]
-So we know Jordan estimated 200,000 USD needed to finish the project
-We know over 200,000 has been spend and yet the project is far from complete.
-We know from Jordan late february little funds were spent.
-By @sigmike estimation not much had been done on the project since late February and only @Eleven and @glv worked on the project in that time.
Then that really begs the question where did all the money go?
Here is another recent post from @Dhume. While it doesn’t offer hard evidence, it does lay out a possible scenario on how all this most likely played out, as it fits with the timeline of events. He even contacted developers for more info to help match things up…
Which shares are these?
During the ICO from both Nushares and B&C Exchange a large amount of shares (at discount price) went to a group of non-disclosed anonymous “seed” investors. Although I wasn’t around for the Nushares ICO from what I’ve heard it was the same as it was with B&C Exchange.
We now know that in all matters relating to development there was no developer team it was just Jordan (@Phoenix) pulling all the strings and hiring developers on a per hour basis. This also means there was 0 oversight on everything he did. Now if we go look at B&C Exchange I quote from the bitcointalk topic.
$80,000 has been procured from a small set of individuals who are certainly in a position to bear a total loss without any adverse consequences to their lifestyle, retirement, etc. These seed investors need to be rewarded for their high level of risk. Therefore, they will be given additional equity. They are purchasing 20% of the BKS for sale. Previously, giving half of the equity to BKS purchasers and half to NuShare holders was planned. This new plan will leave subsequent BKS purchasers unaffected, but it will reduce the equity of NuShare holders to 40% of initial total equity. This 10% of the total equity will be given to the seed investors, so they receive a total of 20% equity for their $80,000. This approach of using seed investment funds at the highest-risk beginning stages was proven to be successful in the development of Nu.
This “seed” investor group got 42,500 BKS for less then 2$ a piece, which in essence is already ridiculous but those were the terms provided by our benevolent dictator. Now keep in mind that Jordan has stated multiple times that roughly 200k USD were needed to develop a functional exchange. This is where it gets interesting.
The distribution of BKS is now entirely complete. Sales have ceased and all purchased BKS have been delivered to investors. In this funding round, 59,048.85 BKS were sold for a total of $240,764 at an average price of $4.077 each. The final total funds raised are $320,764 (including the seed round).
So the B&C exchange dev fund held in total 320K USD including the “seed” investors. Yet on August 2016 there was only 120K Nubits left in in the B&C Exchange development fund. Which means roughly 200K has been spent. Surprisingly there is no working exchange, no beta, only some code which is far from finished. Estimates are that at the very least an additional 100K USD is needed to release even a minimal viable working product. So what happened here after 200K (which was the original target) have been spend we’re still far from even a beta product?
Well the answer is hard since Jordan (@Phoenix) refuses to comment on where the money went. See my topic asking for clarification which is almost religiously ignored by @Phoenix. Now I took it upon myself to find out where the money had actually gone and I contacted all developers that have been working on B&C exchange. From what I gathered and this includes the majority of developers who have worked on B&C Exchange (including @sigmike) less than 100K USD has been paid to developers. Let’s give Jordan the benefit of the doubt and say 120k has actually been spend on B&C exchange. That still means we’re missing roughly 80K USD.
Hmm… roughly 80K USD missing I wonder where that money went? Or maybe that money never existed in the first place? Maybe just maybe that 80K was never paid and those “seed” investors never existed? But if that money was never paid and those seed investors never existed then where did those BKS shares go? If only we had some proof of roughly the amount of shares that are “unaccounted” for voting in conjunction for a few highly controversial motions that enabled @Phoenix’s his reign of terror.
Well I guess that’s all she wrote, all the evidence is there, there were no seed investors. Jordan made it up and rewarded himself with over 42k BKS shares under the pretense of a group of “seed” investors putting in 80k USD. These shares give him roughly 25-30% of the total network and since not everyone is minting that’s more than enough voting power to have a majority stake on active motions. @mhps and @woodstockmerkle can give more information regarding the shares he used to vote for his own motions.
Now I wasn’t there for the Nushares ICO but similarly to the B&C Exchange ICO there was also apparently a group of “seed” investors holding a large stake in the network. I’l bet that the amount of Nushares they received corresponds to the shares voting in favor of @Phoenix’s his motions and I bet that a large amount of money from the Nushare development fund was never accounted for.
You claim @Phoenix used those shares or other stolen shares to vote for Nu and B&C Exchange to trade NSR and US-NBT. Prove that claim by matching the amounts of NuShares with sales I have logged and find a discrepancy.
Unfortunately this has little to do with the sales you’re running. This has been a scam right from the very start. This is why @Phoenix has a majority voting stake in both networks. Not because he actually has shareholders supporting him but because he’s using the shares he stole during the ICO’s to vote for his own motions.
I don’t understand how anyone can say otherwise.
Many seem not to believe in what’s been explained before all over the place, with the opinion that Nu needs to be profitable right now to exist.
I want to make the model more understood. There’s only so much time, and way too much is spent on these accusations lately.
At least some of these later did not appear to be him. Show us what you mean.
Where? What is the evidence? It doesn’t affect my stance, but include it to remove all doubt. Do you also believe he’s majority owner of B&C Exchange?
Agreed, sometimes. Mostly I see others attack him and occasionally me that way without solid backing.
@ConfusedObserver runs around this forum looking for anything he can find that’s not handled exactly as should have been.
@masterOfDisaster was unprofessional in responding to the criticism against his actions. Cheekily put up the proceeds from the single NuShare sale for NuBit customers at 90% devaluation.
Then he stole 13 BTC.
He did give his rationale for what you refer to as unauthorized transactions.
Funneling of initial B&C Exchange shares or later the funds and the trading with it. Dishonest or theft if true, and the latter a breach of trust but arguably defensible.
In regard to the viability of the Nu model or safety for future NuBit holders, whom you’re primarily concerned about, those offenses are not very significant.
I concur with this entire earlier post:
And here it is again.
Going ad hominem, accusing me of being someone else to undermine my credibility.
Your twisted logic is that I am @masterOfDisaster and for that reason I can’t be trusted?
Be careful, otherwise I start using imperative and paramount and you confuse me with JordanLee.
I bumped this
as well. I am @Dhume. Only I am not.
I am just inconvenient.
You should be glad, that some run around and try to find out what’s going on.
But from this quote I take you don’t appreciate.
Why is it more inconvenient what I do than @Phoenix continuous ignoring of questions of importance?
Because you don’t get paid by me?
This is the same stuff he always says. It’s just general stuff that he can get away without explaining in deep detail. I’m looking for specific responses about how exactly the liquidity engine is supposed to work. I wrote that whole article on how I think it is supposed to work and he refuses to address any of the points I made with specifics. He only says general things like we need to increase scale first, which in my opinion is just a general excuse he gives to try and keep the Ponzi going.
He also said that we needed to hire people with specialized knowledge that knew how to run it, so instead of doing actual education on this topic like we wanted, he appoints himself the only one who knows what it really going on. How convenient that this allows him to keep all the specifics to himself. I personally believe he can’t explain how the engine is supposed to function because it’s just a convenient excuse that can be used without proper explanation to keep the money flowing in.
They were random new accounts popping up out of nowhere to praise Phoenix and help justify his massive NuShare reward. Phoenix even said himself that he wanted to give one of these people free NuShares just because they agreed with everything he said, which was just a slap in the face to all the shareholders who had been hurt. No, there is no direct evidence like most things, but it so convenient that these people pop up only when Phoenix was trying to make it seem like he deserved a huge reward. Then they promptly vanished, never to be heard from again.
What other conclusion can you draw here? There is never going to be direct evidence for everything you want to know. You need to be able to read between the lines. There are just too many negative coincidences that benefit Phoenix and point to him orchestrating everything through propaganda and intentional avoidance of transparency. At some point you need to decide whether the coincidences are too much to be believable and cash out. That’s what I did.
Fine, maybe not proven, but like I said above there is circumstantial evidence and coincidences that benefit him. I believe it was first brought up in that analysis thread that @mhps made, where he looked for voting patterns with addresses on the blockchain. Then there are all the motions where stagnant shares come out of hiding only to put Phoenix over the edge and then vanish from wherever they came.
He is not just trying to make Phoenix look bad. He is trying to point out all these negative coincidences that form a pattern. It seems too many of you are just not seeing them and are falling for propaganda and the narrative he’s trying to sell to turn us into the bad guys. As I’ve stated it is a common tactic by those who are trying to deflect attention away from themselves and their behavior.
I would have to agree with you on this one, even though once again we have no direct proof. I immediately noticed the similarities in posting habits and even confronted him privately about it. He denied it of course, the same as he is doing in public. Even if it is true, I don’t think that takes away from his arguments.
This is true that they were stolen, but it may not have been primarily for financial gain. If we are to draw the conclusion that they are the same person, I would argue that the main reason would instead be to help prevent an obvious scam from continuing to function again in order to protect future victims from suffering financial loss. I won’t say that I think that justifies the action, but I’m just pointing out that there is a better reason for understanding why he might have done this, in order to protect the public. The less money Nu has to work with, the less of a chance it has to get back on its feet and continue drawing in new victims.
Again, I am not condoning the action taken, but merely explaining the reasoning that may have taken place. In his mind since he was convinced the entire thing was a fraud, it may have made more sense to try and starve it for funds in order to kill it once and for all. To do that though would mean sacrificing his identity.
[quote=“Dhume, post:28, topic:5009, full:true”]
So judging by the response I take it that no one here is actually going to challenge Phoenix to answer Dhume’s question? None of you are interested in knowing and are all completely willing to go along with whatever he tells you without questioning it? Because without a single person directly asking him the question here in public, that is what it appears like, that people would rather live in ignorance. No one is asking you to accuse him of anything. Just ask him the question and see if he respects you enough to answer back.
I give up. It seems that none of you can be bothered to seek the truth of what happened here by asking a simple question and would rather not rock the boat so your investment isn’t affected. I’ve got no time for people who want to continue living in fairy tale land. Have fun with Phoenix.
Setbacks are here for a reason – to learn lessons and go to the next thing
@Sentinelrv You’re upset about a lot, but only two potentially valid things, one of which at this point we can’t do anything about and neither carry the significance you suggest. That’s why I don’t prioritize this over many other important tasks I have before me.
There’s a crazy amount of wild conjecture being pushed by people who don’t know what they’re talking about and only wish to create chaos in our damaged community. The team is working hard to reinforce and improve Nu in this unnecessarily hostile and depressing environment.
This is my true opinion. I hope others will begin to speak up in support of what we’re doing despite the risk of being criticized and ridiculed.
It doesn’t matter. I’m not posting here anymore. I’ve had enough.