Actively Maintained Data Feeds

[Sabreiib]

@Nagalim @Sentinelrv, assume you are correct about @Phoenix is such a scammer, why he is still here? That’s not logical.

Phoenix/Jordan is not perfect, but I guess his motivation is good. BTW, @Sentinelrv, It’s because I believed your advocating words to invest B&C in 2015, now you are against this ecosystem.

@Nagalim, your faith was so strong about NBT<->NSR shift mechanism before 2016, and we argued a lot about the issues of Liquidity engine, now you are totally against Nu.

You are still here, without any regret. Perhaps Phoenix also should apologize about not describing the liquidity engine very detailed because even @tomjoad didn’t understand/agree with NSR sales.

If my suggestion is proven to be wrong, I will leave the forum before apologizing to all of you. Is the word “sorry” so difficult to say?

BTW, I think tomjoad and master of disaster are somehow greedy because both of them want to dilute other BKS holders when B&C’s version upgrade in difficulty, remember it.

In my eyes, there is no perfect man in this world. I don’t need to make friends with you, I don’t hope any of you are good person, I just trust mathematics and self interest, that’s the only foundation for a decentralized system as bitcoin.

[jooize]

I mostly agree with @Phoenix but think his numbers for purchasing network control are misleading. Immediately purchasing 400,000,000 NSR at Poloniex would cost around 300 BTC, and 500,000,000 NSR is 460 BTC. 300 BTC is almost $350,000.

@Phoenix is a terrible defender of his potential innocence.

There may just be no answer because he can’t have it unless the answer is him being majority shareholder.

It makes no sense to still argue about what @Phoenix did to recover Nu. FLOT failed to sustain the peg with Tier 6. @Phoenix took Nu out of a hole that nobody else displayed anywhere near ability to do.

Nu is operational, we’ve established how to operate Tier 6, and we’re moving forward with developments. Be a little appreciative of that!

@Phoenix responding saying you’re being emotional from the loss may not be likely to improve the mood, and I’ve adviced him of that. I just can’t see what’s left to be upset about though, and by this point I don’t come up with any other explanation.

[Cybnate]

that nobody else displayed anywhere near ability to do.

Don’t agree, still believe there were other viable scenarios. There have been at least two other motions at the time.[quote=“jooize, post:15, topic:5009”]
responding saying you’re being emotional from the loss may not be likely to improve the mood, and I’ve adviced him of that. I just can’t see what’s left to be upset about though, and by this point I don’t come up with any other explanation.
[/quote]
I agree we need to move on and stop people calling names, take the lessons learnt and rebuild or find another home.

I’m no loger maintaining my datafeed as the last motion basically appointed @Phoenix with all responsibilities and exec power on the network. So there is less point in voting for something unless Phoenix wants to consult the minority shareholders and invites them to do so. I would activate my datafeed when that starts to happen on a regular bases and appears to be serio

[Phoenix]

the last motion basically appointed @Phoenix with all responsibilities and exec power on the network.

I dispute this.

There is a passed motion that permits me to allocate shareholder funds in modest amounts for any purpose that is in shareholder interests. This is very useful, and is the only reason I can legally offer you payment for hosting a Nu client for NuDroid, as an example.

I would like to be more specialized with a smaller scope of activity, but there aren’t enough other people attending to the needs of shareholders at this point to make that practical.

[Dhume]

FLOT failed to sustain the peg with Tier 6.

Explain to me how FLOT could have raised 50-100k in a few days with less than 15 BTC on the buyside on Poloniex. Don’t confuse the slow selling of small amounts of NSR over a period of months if not years with the ability to generate large amount of funds in a short interval. We needed to raise at least 50-100k USD in a matter of days to prevent the peg from collapsing which was impossible. Trying to claim that the current method of selling a few hundred bucks a day for months on end is proof that tier 6 works in an emergency situation is absolute nonsense.

@Phoenix took Nu out of a hole that nobody else displayed anywhere near ability to do.

No @Phoenix used his illegally obtained shares (which are a voting majority) to remove the largest creditor (B&C exchange) from the Nubit supply and tons of Nubit holders yielded and sold their Nubits back to Nu at a significant loss (selling below 0.20 cents apiece even).

If B&C exchange still held its Nubits and no Nubit holders sold under 1 USD Nu would still be in nearly the exact same hole it was in during the peg collapse.

Nu is operational, we’ve established how to operate Tier 6, and we’re moving forward with developments. Be a little appreciative of that!

Nu defaulted and its customers and shareholders ended up paying for that. Tier 6 doesn’t work when we need it most which is the most retarded aspect about this ridiculous model called the liquidity engine. Without revenue Nu is literally a Ponzi scheme and its collapse is inevitable. Trying to restart the Ponzi by finding new unsuspecting customers is disgusting and you are willingly and knowingly aiding this criminal @jooize. Wake up man!

[jooize]

The only criminal I know here is @masterOfDisaster and possibly @henry. If you want me to see what you see, do what I have done for your own narrative.

@Phoenix used his illegally obtained shares

Which shares are these?

2016–08–16

@Phoenix posts motion “B&C Exchange should trade all US-NBT for NSR”.

— [Passed] B&C Exchange should trade all US-NBT for NSR

2016–09–03

Motion “B&C Exchange should trade all US-NBT for NSR” passes.

Motion passed in Nu: 2016–08–30 22:18 UTC
Motion passed in B&C: 2016–09–03 12:43 UTC

— [Passed] B&C Exchange should trade all US-NBT for NSR

2016–09–13

@Phoenix is granted 278,480,580 NSR on behalf of B&C Exchange to SSajkovCPXwdw46nyJ7vpTDkwtRZJzyY2z.

— https://nuexplorer.ddns.net/blocks/1052379/1

Current balance of that address is 199,441,111 NSR. Including sent to addresses since March 27 there’s:

199,441,111 + 14,951,210 + 3,516,040 + 15,000,000 + 367,910 + 11,220,000 = 244,496,271

Takes forever to scroll beyond that in NuExplorer, so I don’t know where the rest is or what’s up with them.

That address is indeed minting, as @Phoenix has stated publicly at the bottom of a post somewhere, but those are not the shares you’re talking about.

The shares you’re talking about is likely part of the 420,000,000 NSR that @Phoenix was granted before the B&C Exchange grant. He was also granted 3,000,000 NSR for his role as Chief of Liquidity Operations.

https://nuexplorer.ddns.net/address/SUrJhmYVeNThoG6oFWjY9pMawRJ3iCTHCq/1/newest
https://nuexplorer.ddns.net/address/SRKudQwjKPAgcvAoqUpYJ5KwBBqbJYrPn5/1/newest
https://nuexplorer.ddns.net/address/Sbg4CCM7wpKd6GcgLNE5p39w7pvCDSZhtt/1/newest
https://nuexplorer.ddns.net/address/SeKTUZNUoNXELNopMzMj8H4HJyFoYreiJJ/1/newest
https://nuexplorer.ddns.net/address/Skd4URMyQuMTBYaVivWe7BKmLuF936FUxt/1/newest

There’s no minting directly by those addresses. @Phoenix’s attack vector here is sending NuShares to himself instead of someone who paid for them and relying on us not noticing.

I performed blind auctions and a few direct sales at that time. The last one was Blind Auction NSR #10. I received 13.8 BTC for 15 M NSR. 6.84 BTC from Blind Auction NSR #3. 16.2 BTC for 18 M NSR. 1.2 BTC + 12 BTC from Blind Auction NSR #5.

You claim @Phoenix used those shares or other stolen shares to vote for Nu and B&C Exchange to trade NSR and US-NBT. Prove that claim by matching the amounts of NuShares with sales I have logged and find a discrepancy.

[Phoenix]

Let’s remember that @Dhume was one of the few individuals contractually obligated to provide liquidity for Nu as a multisig signer last June. He refused to transfer funds according to contract. He broke his contract, broke the law, and destroyed a tremendous quantity of value.

He feels quite defensive about his own serious misconduct. I’m not suggesting @Dhume was malicious. I don’t see any indication of that. He didn’t gain from his misconduct, so there was no aspect of corruption. But what he did do was wrong and destructive, even if it was the result of ignorance. By claiming the system is flawed, he diverts blame from himself, which appears to be his motive for posts such as the above.

The facts speak for themselves. The liquidity engine works brilliantly. Its very powerful and very effective. The capacity of the system to support the peg was not even strained at the time the peg was abandoned. Everything was within healthy parameters. It is ridiculous and unfair to suggest there weren’t funds available to pay full price for NuBits being sold. While any calculation depends on great many factors and assumptions, my guess is Nu had 10, 20 or 30 times as much peg supporting capacity in late May and June as it actually needed to support the peg. The problem was some custodians made the unlawful choice not to even attempt to support the peg. That is a very uncomfortable reality for @Dhume, because it makes him responsible for unlawful and large financial losses.

[Cybnate]

While any calculation depends on great many factors and assumptions, my guess is Nu had 10, 20 or 30 times as much peg supporting capacity in late May and June as it actually needed to support the peg.

Honestly, that was not my impression at the time. Unless you assume that selling tens or maybe even hundreds of millions of NSR in a matter of two weeks or so would have resulted in 10, 20 or 30 times as much as the peg. The price would likely have plummeted instantly as it was not really a bullish environment. You can argue about the bottom price which would have been reached though. Probably much lower than the all time low we reached earlier this year is my guess.

The problem was some custodians made the unlawful choice not to even attempt to support the peg.

I’m with you that FLOT should have at least tried harder given the contract, but it is questionable as above whether the outcome would have been better. The sudden bankrun was already happening.

Edit: would be interested to find out why the person who sold the big chunk of NBT did that. The official reason was that BTC was more bullish. You may read the NBT risk was getting to high given the low reserves and the lack of income/sales. I think to solve this you need to go back to the root cause.

[Phoenix]

Probably much lower than the all time low we reached earlier this year is my guess.

That perception really surprises me. While we will never know, my guess is that if contracts would have been followed and vigorous support for the peg had been consistently attempted, I doubt the NSR price would have dropped below 200 at any point. Dropping below 100 would be almost inconceivable. Then, with faith and confidence intact, we likely would have seen the satoshi price rise from there to new highs on strong NSR buybacks. The difference in outcome is colossal.

[Cybnate]

That perception really surprises me.

Then, with faith and confidence intact,

Even when majority of shareholders may react rational, if a significant number would act driven by emotions such as panic and sell suddenly, the experienced rationale shareholder would also sell and wait until the market has settled lower and then buy back. This would have created a deep bottom. That is why I would have anticipated a deep spike which may or may not have saved the peg.

I think there is still a vulnerability when significant amounts of NBT are being sold in a short amount of time. The wave of panic it creates cast a long shadow on the perception of peg and the value of NSR and with that the reserves which creates a negative feedback loop.

I support a reserve of 48% as it is way better than 15%, but I believe it should be even higher until significant volumes and sales have been reached. Thinking of at least where Tether is now before 48% is reasonably safe. The risk of single actor selling a significant amount is just too high and has likely a immense negative impact.

[jooize]

Even when majority of shareholders may react rational, if a significant number would act driven by emotions such as panic and sell suddenly, the experienced rationale shareholder would also sell and wait until the market has settled lower and then buy back. This would have created a deep bottom. That is why I would have anticipated a deep spike which may or may not have saved the peg.

I share that concern, but ponder that a NuShare market with expected effects from Nu might make that risk small.

I expect shareholders want to avoid pushing the price down, because it damages perception and directly devalues their investment. There’s likely much more to it, and I hope to see that broken down.

I’m with you that FLOT should have at least tried harder given the contract, but it is questionable as above whether the outcome would have been better. The sudden bankrun was already happening.

When do you consider the bank run to have begun? I noted the window of time FLOT had to sell NuShares. I’m always keen to hear your opinion of my findings.

While we will never know, my guess is that if contracts would have been followed and vigorous support for the peg had been consistently attempted, I doubt the NSR price would have dropped below 200 at any point. Dropping below 100 would be almost inconceivable. Then, with faith and confidence intact, we likely would have seen the satoshi price rise from there to new highs on strong NSR buybacks.

I believe that. Nu might have suffered from not being understood and generally lacking investors, but all the support we saw doesn’t make me think of that as a problem.

To handle future decline in NuBit demand we must make sure that Tier 6 is low in friction (quick from NSR/BTC to BTC/US-NBT), its use is gradual, and that the NuShare market understands or believes in Nu. We’ve reduced friction and established a scaling system for sales and buybacks. Do we all think that’s a good system, and can it be improved?

I support a reserve of 48% as it is way better than 15%, but I believe it should be even higher until significant volumes and sales have been reached.

That’s worth considering. I’m fascinated that Nu functioned well with 15% immediate reserves for so long. Large holders shouldn’t want to sell too fast and break the peg as that might trigger a bank run. Our liquidity flow should be designed to have a buffer and operated to make selling aggressively with malicious intent require them to risk their own remaining funds. Can we improve on that?

[Cybnate]

When do you consider the bank run to have begun

When the first 50k NBT was sold, which also took a while before it was clear what happened and acted upon. This triggered further sales and downward pressure which FLOT couldn’t keep up with. It would be great to see the dates back on a timeline. Hope you manage to achieve that. It will provide a better insight on how to better act on some of the events we have seen and whether it is actually realistic/feasible.

A simple open-source timeline editor can be found here: http://thetimelineproj.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html. There are better tools but only commercially available.

[Dhume]

Which shares are these?[/quote]

During the ICO from both Nushares and B&C Exchange a large amount of shares (at discount price) went to a group of non-disclosed anonymous “seed” investors. Although I wasn’t around for the Nushares ICO from what I’ve heard it was the same as it was with B&C Exchange.

We now know that in all matters relating to development there was no developer team it was just Jordan (@Phoenix) pulling all the strings and hiring developers on a per hour basis. This also means there was 0 oversight on everything he did. Now if we go look at B&C Exchange I quote from the bitcointalk topic.

$80,000 has been procured from a small set of individuals who are certainly in a position to bear a total loss without any adverse consequences to their lifestyle, retirement, etc. These seed investors need to be rewarded for their high level of risk. Therefore, they will be given additional equity. They are purchasing 20% of the BKS for sale. Previously, giving half of the equity to BKS purchasers and half to NuShare holders was planned. This new plan will leave subsequent BKS purchasers unaffected, but it will reduce the equity of NuShare holders to 40% of initial total equity. This 10% of the total equity will be given to the seed investors, so they receive a total of 20% equity for their $80,000. This approach of using seed investment funds at the highest-risk beginning stages was proven to be successful in the development of Nu.

This “seed” investor group got 42,500 BKS for less then 2$ a piece, which in essence is already ridiculous but those were the terms provided by our benevolent dictator. Now keep in mind that Jordan has stated multiple times that roughly 200k USD were needed to develop a functional exchange. This is where it gets interesting.

The distribution of BKS is now entirely complete. Sales have ceased and all purchased BKS have been delivered to investors. In this funding round, 59,048.85 BKS were sold for a total of $240,764 at an average price of $4.077 each. The final total funds raised are $320,764 (including the seed round).

So the B&C exchange dev fund held in total 320K USD including the “seed” investors. Yet on August 2016 there was only 120K Nubits left in in the B&C Exchange development fund. Which means roughly 200K has been spent. Surprisingly there is no working exchange, no beta, only some code which is far from finished. Estimates are that at the very least an additional 100K USD is needed to release even a minimal viable working product. So what happened here after 200K (which was the original target) have been spend we’re still far from even a beta product?

Well the answer is hard since Jordan (@Phoenix) refuses to comment on where the money went. See my topic asking for clarification which is almost religiously ignored by @Phoenix. Now I took it upon myself to find out where the money had actually gone and I contacted all developers that have been working on B&C exchange. From what I gathered and this includes the majority of developers who have worked on B&C Exchange (including @sigmike) less than 100K USD has been paid to developers. Let’s give Jordan the benefit of the doubt and say 120k has actually been spend on B&C exchange. That still means we’re missing roughly 80K USD.

Hmm… roughly 80K USD missing I wonder where that money went? Or maybe that money never existed in the first place? Maybe just maybe that 80K was never paid and those “seed” investors never existed? But if that money was never paid and those seed investors never existed then where did those BKS shares go? If only we had some proof of roughly the amount of shares that are “unaccounted” for voting in conjunction for a few highly controversial motions that enabled @Phoenix’s his reign of terror.

Well I guess that’s all she wrote, all the evidence is there, there were no seed investors. Jordan made it up and rewarded himself with over 42k BKS shares under the pretense of a group of “seed” investors putting in 80k USD. These shares give him roughly 25-30% of the total network and since not everyone is minting that’s more than enough voting power to have a majority stake on active motions. @mhps and @woodstockmerkle can give more information regarding the shares he used to vote for his own motions.

Now I wasn’t there for the Nushares ICO but similarly to the B&C Exchange ICO there was also apparently a group of “seed” investors holding a large stake in the network. I’l bet that the amount of Nushares they received corresponds to the shares voting in favor of @Phoenix’s his motions and I bet that a large amount of money from the Nushare development fund was never accounted for.

[quote]You claim @Phoenix used those shares or other stolen shares to vote for Nu and B&C Exchange to trade NSR and US-NBT. Prove that claim by matching the amounts of NuShares with sales I have logged and find a discrepancy.

Unfortunately this has little to do with the sales you’re running. This has been a scam right from the very start. This is why @Phoenix has a majority voting stake in both networks. Not because he actually has shareholders supporting him but because he’s using the shares he stole during the ICO’s to vote for his own motions.

[Cybnate]

I appreciate the facto seeking and many things you say support a plausible scenario. Current and future investors should keep this in the back of their minds for sure.

A few notes though:

This is why @Phoenix has a majority voting stake in both networks

You are contradicting yourself stating earlier that he only has 25-30% and some facts from motion voting that he doesn’t. He may have majority of minting power but that is different.

Well I guess that’s all she wrote, all the evidence is there, there were no seed investors

This conclusion is more an assumption where you state it I believe incorrectly as a fact. However there is no factual proof either way as any form of accounting doesn’t exist which is the underlying issue.

I bet that a large amount of money from the Nushare development fund was never accounted for.

Same problem as above, no transparent accounting of received funds which is different from blockchain transactions.

This has been a scam right from the very start.

Not because he actually has shareholders supporting him but because he’s using the shares he stole during the ICO’s to vote for his own motions.

Bold statements only based on a plausible scenario.

Having said that I would be the first calling for transparency and accountability. I’m just hesitating pulling out accusations without facts even so there are some scenarios pointing in that direction and some red flags. I still hope someone, preferably @phoenix would address those red flags soon or at least other plausible scenarios to the contrary are being presented. This would greatly help to restore trust and would likely significantly increase the share price especially when facts to the contrary are being presented.

I encourage posts seeking facts and possible scenarios so that everyone is at least informed what may have happened here as a warning and understanding the risks. Just let’s be careful with accusations until we do have all the facts and not only plausible or possible scenarios pointing in a direction. I’m still hoping on a story behind a story, but maybe I’m naive.

[Dhume]

[quote=“Cybnate, post:27, topic:5009, full:true”]
You are contradicting yourself stating earlier that he only has 25-30% and some facts from motion voting that he doesn’t. He may have majority of minting power but that is different.[/quote]

I meant a majority of minting power.

[quote]
This conclusion is more an assumption where you state it I believe incorrectly as a fact. However there is no factual proof either way as any form of accounting doesn’t exist which is the underlying issue.[/quote]

Accounting has never existed not because shareholders haven’t asked. You’ll find this forum has been littered for years with requests about accounting and transparency yet none was ever given. Why do you think that is?

Bold statements only based on a plausible scenario.

They are bold statements but all the evidence points in one direction.

• This group of seed investors has never been “involved” on this forum or in this community and until @Phoenix needed the voting power they didn’t vote or mint either.
• There was no oversight on ICO funds Jordan didn’t even share the addresses that held the development funds even though it would have been no problem publicizing the address that held development funds. He purposefully avoided this so no one except himself knew how many funds there were.
• Explain how a project managed to spend 200K which was the original target and is still far off from even a beta product. No explanation for this has ever been given despite being asked repeatedly for months.
• The people who actually worked on the project didn’t receive even close to the 200K that was supposedly spend. Why do you think Jordan has always meticulously avoided answering this very reasonable request?

His transformation into @Phoenix has shown his true colors, he continuously uses rhetoric and ad hominem attacks to try and delegitimize any question or anyone that doesn’t sing to his tune. He’s been waging a textbook propaganda war since he came to scene as @Phoenix, I truly believe Nu and B&C will go into the history books as one of the most elaborative crypto scams in history.

[Sentinelrv]

His transformation into @Phoenix has shown his true colors, he continuously uses rhetoric and ad hominem attacks to try and delegitimize any question or anyone that doesn’t sing to his tune. He’s been waging a textbook propaganda war since he came to scene as @Phoenix, I truly believe Nu and B&C will go into the history books as one of the most elaborative crypto scams in history.

Yes, I’ve been saying the same thing in the timeline thread both here and here. It is so obvious at this point that something else is going on that I just cannot fathom why more people here are not calling him out to answer these questions immediately. Instead they just hope to get transparency at some point in the future.

I say WAKE UP! It’s NEVER going to happen unless you speak up and demand answers from him right now, and most likely even then you will hear absolutely nothing, which should tell you everything you need to know. By not speaking up about this, everyone here is literally allowing Jordan to get away with everything and possibly cause misery and financial loss for thousands or tens of thousands of potential future victims. Do you want that on your conscience, that you didn’t do everything you possibly could to get to the bottom of a case of possible massive fraud?

I have even PMed people here for their help and so far I have received no response, which is extremely disappointing. I honestly don’t even know what to say to that. Nobody is willing to stand up to him. It’s like some sick twisted form of Stockholm syndrome. You’re already too invested with Nu, so you just keep taking the psychological beatings from Phoenix hoping that it will all work out in the end. He is financially murdering you all and you don’t even realize it.

[jooize]

I am excited to see some actual digging! With all the ghost wolves I lend little credibility to most of the accusers, but I will avoid disregarding what they say.

Those circumstances being true would mean he faked development funds to gain free shareholdership in B&C Exchange and possibly also Nu. That’s obviously dishonest. It wouldn’t be reprehensible for the creator to take initial ownership, but deceit is the accusation, binary possibility with B&C Exchange, and when this matters.

Careful with “all the evidence is there”, “all the evidence points in one direction”, and saying it’s all obvious. You’re doing a disservice to your cause. You seem to have a legitimate concern about the B&C Exchange fund.

I have even PMed people here

It takes a lot of time and energy to properly evaluate accusations while filtering out all the ones that are thrown in along the way without substance, that are disproven, or between repeated mentions of someone’s view of him as a scammer.

[Sentinelrv]

It takes a lot of time and energy to properly evaluate accusations while filtering out all the ones that are thrown in along the way without substance, that are disproven, or between repeated mentions of someone’s view of him as a scammer.

Fair enough. All I expect is to see people question the man himself when things are brought up like what @Dhume has put forward. Seeing comments from some about “hoping” to get some transparency “at some point” is not what I expect to hear after findings are put forward that appear this serious. It requires an equally serious response. That’s all I’m looking for from people.

[ConfusedObserver]

Nobody is willing to stand up to him.

I’m willing to
But I’m no shareholder and for that reason my concerns are stamped as playing no role. So what?
The voting majority of shareholders isn’t interested in proper accounting.
What does that mean?

Careful with “all the evidence is there”, “all the evidence points in one direction”, and saying it’s all obvious.

Something doesn’t add up and the one who’s able to and obliged to provide information hides behind Angela and shapeshifts.
That’s obvious, isn’t it?

[MaVo]

Jesus, I almost forgot about Angela! I remember the hilarious moment she was introduced for the first time, when everybody wondered who the fuck she is

Maybe Angela is @Henry’s wife, that would make at least a little bit of sense!