Actively Maintained Data Feeds

[Cybnate]

While any calculation depends on great many factors and assumptions, my guess is Nu had 10, 20 or 30 times as much peg supporting capacity in late May and June as it actually needed to support the peg.

Honestly, that was not my impression at the time. Unless you assume that selling tens or maybe even hundreds of millions of NSR in a matter of two weeks or so would have resulted in 10, 20 or 30 times as much as the peg. The price would likely have plummeted instantly as it was not really a bullish environment. You can argue about the bottom price which would have been reached though. Probably much lower than the all time low we reached earlier this year is my guess.

The problem was some custodians made the unlawful choice not to even attempt to support the peg.

I’m with you that FLOT should have at least tried harder given the contract, but it is questionable as above whether the outcome would have been better. The sudden bankrun was already happening.

Edit: would be interested to find out why the person who sold the big chunk of NBT did that. The official reason was that BTC was more bullish. You may read the NBT risk was getting to high given the low reserves and the lack of income/sales. I think to solve this you need to go back to the root cause.

[Phoenix]

Probably much lower than the all time low we reached earlier this year is my guess.

That perception really surprises me. While we will never know, my guess is that if contracts would have been followed and vigorous support for the peg had been consistently attempted, I doubt the NSR price would have dropped below 200 at any point. Dropping below 100 would be almost inconceivable. Then, with faith and confidence intact, we likely would have seen the satoshi price rise from there to new highs on strong NSR buybacks. The difference in outcome is colossal.

[Cybnate]

That perception really surprises me.

Then, with faith and confidence intact,

Even when majority of shareholders may react rational, if a significant number would act driven by emotions such as panic and sell suddenly, the experienced rationale shareholder would also sell and wait until the market has settled lower and then buy back. This would have created a deep bottom. That is why I would have anticipated a deep spike which may or may not have saved the peg.

I think there is still a vulnerability when significant amounts of NBT are being sold in a short amount of time. The wave of panic it creates cast a long shadow on the perception of peg and the value of NSR and with that the reserves which creates a negative feedback loop.

I support a reserve of 48% as it is way better than 15%, but I believe it should be even higher until significant volumes and sales have been reached. Thinking of at least where Tether is now before 48% is reasonably safe. The risk of single actor selling a significant amount is just too high and has likely a immense negative impact.

[jooize]

Even when majority of shareholders may react rational, if a significant number would act driven by emotions such as panic and sell suddenly, the experienced rationale shareholder would also sell and wait until the market has settled lower and then buy back. This would have created a deep bottom. That is why I would have anticipated a deep spike which may or may not have saved the peg.

I share that concern, but ponder that a NuShare market with expected effects from Nu might make that risk small.

I expect shareholders want to avoid pushing the price down, because it damages perception and directly devalues their investment. There’s likely much more to it, and I hope to see that broken down.

I’m with you that FLOT should have at least tried harder given the contract, but it is questionable as above whether the outcome would have been better. The sudden bankrun was already happening.

When do you consider the bank run to have begun? I noted the window of time FLOT had to sell NuShares. I’m always keen to hear your opinion of my findings.

While we will never know, my guess is that if contracts would have been followed and vigorous support for the peg had been consistently attempted, I doubt the NSR price would have dropped below 200 at any point. Dropping below 100 would be almost inconceivable. Then, with faith and confidence intact, we likely would have seen the satoshi price rise from there to new highs on strong NSR buybacks.

I believe that. Nu might have suffered from not being understood and generally lacking investors, but all the support we saw doesn’t make me think of that as a problem.

To handle future decline in NuBit demand we must make sure that Tier 6 is low in friction (quick from NSR/BTC to BTC/US-NBT), its use is gradual, and that the NuShare market understands or believes in Nu. We’ve reduced friction and established a scaling system for sales and buybacks. Do we all think that’s a good system, and can it be improved?

I support a reserve of 48% as it is way better than 15%, but I believe it should be even higher until significant volumes and sales have been reached.

That’s worth considering. I’m fascinated that Nu functioned well with 15% immediate reserves for so long. Large holders shouldn’t want to sell too fast and break the peg as that might trigger a bank run. Our liquidity flow should be designed to have a buffer and operated to make selling aggressively with malicious intent require them to risk their own remaining funds. Can we improve on that?

[Cybnate]

When do you consider the bank run to have begun

When the first 50k NBT was sold, which also took a while before it was clear what happened and acted upon. This triggered further sales and downward pressure which FLOT couldn’t keep up with. It would be great to see the dates back on a timeline. Hope you manage to achieve that. It will provide a better insight on how to better act on some of the events we have seen and whether it is actually realistic/feasible.

A simple open-source timeline editor can be found here: http://thetimelineproj.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html. There are better tools but only commercially available.

[Dhume]

Which shares are these?[/quote]

During the ICO from both Nushares and B&C Exchange a large amount of shares (at discount price) went to a group of non-disclosed anonymous “seed” investors. Although I wasn’t around for the Nushares ICO from what I’ve heard it was the same as it was with B&C Exchange.

We now know that in all matters relating to development there was no developer team it was just Jordan (@Phoenix) pulling all the strings and hiring developers on a per hour basis. This also means there was 0 oversight on everything he did. Now if we go look at B&C Exchange I quote from the bitcointalk topic.

$80,000 has been procured from a small set of individuals who are certainly in a position to bear a total loss without any adverse consequences to their lifestyle, retirement, etc. These seed investors need to be rewarded for their high level of risk. Therefore, they will be given additional equity. They are purchasing 20% of the BKS for sale. Previously, giving half of the equity to BKS purchasers and half to NuShare holders was planned. This new plan will leave subsequent BKS purchasers unaffected, but it will reduce the equity of NuShare holders to 40% of initial total equity. This 10% of the total equity will be given to the seed investors, so they receive a total of 20% equity for their $80,000. This approach of using seed investment funds at the highest-risk beginning stages was proven to be successful in the development of Nu.

This “seed” investor group got 42,500 BKS for less then 2$ a piece, which in essence is already ridiculous but those were the terms provided by our benevolent dictator. Now keep in mind that Jordan has stated multiple times that roughly 200k USD were needed to develop a functional exchange. This is where it gets interesting.

The distribution of BKS is now entirely complete. Sales have ceased and all purchased BKS have been delivered to investors. In this funding round, 59,048.85 BKS were sold for a total of $240,764 at an average price of $4.077 each. The final total funds raised are $320,764 (including the seed round).

So the B&C exchange dev fund held in total 320K USD including the “seed” investors. Yet on August 2016 there was only 120K Nubits left in in the B&C Exchange development fund. Which means roughly 200K has been spent. Surprisingly there is no working exchange, no beta, only some code which is far from finished. Estimates are that at the very least an additional 100K USD is needed to release even a minimal viable working product. So what happened here after 200K (which was the original target) have been spend we’re still far from even a beta product?

Well the answer is hard since Jordan (@Phoenix) refuses to comment on where the money went. See my topic asking for clarification which is almost religiously ignored by @Phoenix. Now I took it upon myself to find out where the money had actually gone and I contacted all developers that have been working on B&C exchange. From what I gathered and this includes the majority of developers who have worked on B&C Exchange (including @sigmike) less than 100K USD has been paid to developers. Let’s give Jordan the benefit of the doubt and say 120k has actually been spend on B&C exchange. That still means we’re missing roughly 80K USD.

Hmm… roughly 80K USD missing I wonder where that money went? Or maybe that money never existed in the first place? Maybe just maybe that 80K was never paid and those “seed” investors never existed? But if that money was never paid and those seed investors never existed then where did those BKS shares go? If only we had some proof of roughly the amount of shares that are “unaccounted” for voting in conjunction for a few highly controversial motions that enabled @Phoenix’s his reign of terror.

Well I guess that’s all she wrote, all the evidence is there, there were no seed investors. Jordan made it up and rewarded himself with over 42k BKS shares under the pretense of a group of “seed” investors putting in 80k USD. These shares give him roughly 25-30% of the total network and since not everyone is minting that’s more than enough voting power to have a majority stake on active motions. @mhps and @woodstockmerkle can give more information regarding the shares he used to vote for his own motions.

Now I wasn’t there for the Nushares ICO but similarly to the B&C Exchange ICO there was also apparently a group of “seed” investors holding a large stake in the network. I’l bet that the amount of Nushares they received corresponds to the shares voting in favor of @Phoenix’s his motions and I bet that a large amount of money from the Nushare development fund was never accounted for.

[quote]You claim @Phoenix used those shares or other stolen shares to vote for Nu and B&C Exchange to trade NSR and US-NBT. Prove that claim by matching the amounts of NuShares with sales I have logged and find a discrepancy.

Unfortunately this has little to do with the sales you’re running. This has been a scam right from the very start. This is why @Phoenix has a majority voting stake in both networks. Not because he actually has shareholders supporting him but because he’s using the shares he stole during the ICO’s to vote for his own motions.

[Cybnate]

I appreciate the facto seeking and many things you say support a plausible scenario. Current and future investors should keep this in the back of their minds for sure.

A few notes though:

This is why @Phoenix has a majority voting stake in both networks

You are contradicting yourself stating earlier that he only has 25-30% and some facts from motion voting that he doesn’t. He may have majority of minting power but that is different.

Well I guess that’s all she wrote, all the evidence is there, there were no seed investors

This conclusion is more an assumption where you state it I believe incorrectly as a fact. However there is no factual proof either way as any form of accounting doesn’t exist which is the underlying issue.

I bet that a large amount of money from the Nushare development fund was never accounted for.

Same problem as above, no transparent accounting of received funds which is different from blockchain transactions.

This has been a scam right from the very start.

Not because he actually has shareholders supporting him but because he’s using the shares he stole during the ICO’s to vote for his own motions.

Bold statements only based on a plausible scenario.

Having said that I would be the first calling for transparency and accountability. I’m just hesitating pulling out accusations without facts even so there are some scenarios pointing in that direction and some red flags. I still hope someone, preferably @phoenix would address those red flags soon or at least other plausible scenarios to the contrary are being presented. This would greatly help to restore trust and would likely significantly increase the share price especially when facts to the contrary are being presented.

I encourage posts seeking facts and possible scenarios so that everyone is at least informed what may have happened here as a warning and understanding the risks. Just let’s be careful with accusations until we do have all the facts and not only plausible or possible scenarios pointing in a direction. I’m still hoping on a story behind a story, but maybe I’m naive.

[Dhume]

[quote=“Cybnate, post:27, topic:5009, full:true”]
You are contradicting yourself stating earlier that he only has 25-30% and some facts from motion voting that he doesn’t. He may have majority of minting power but that is different.[/quote]

I meant a majority of minting power.

[quote]
This conclusion is more an assumption where you state it I believe incorrectly as a fact. However there is no factual proof either way as any form of accounting doesn’t exist which is the underlying issue.[/quote]

Accounting has never existed not because shareholders haven’t asked. You’ll find this forum has been littered for years with requests about accounting and transparency yet none was ever given. Why do you think that is?

Bold statements only based on a plausible scenario.

They are bold statements but all the evidence points in one direction.

• This group of seed investors has never been “involved” on this forum or in this community and until @Phoenix needed the voting power they didn’t vote or mint either.
• There was no oversight on ICO funds Jordan didn’t even share the addresses that held the development funds even though it would have been no problem publicizing the address that held development funds. He purposefully avoided this so no one except himself knew how many funds there were.
• Explain how a project managed to spend 200K which was the original target and is still far off from even a beta product. No explanation for this has ever been given despite being asked repeatedly for months.
• The people who actually worked on the project didn’t receive even close to the 200K that was supposedly spend. Why do you think Jordan has always meticulously avoided answering this very reasonable request?

His transformation into @Phoenix has shown his true colors, he continuously uses rhetoric and ad hominem attacks to try and delegitimize any question or anyone that doesn’t sing to his tune. He’s been waging a textbook propaganda war since he came to scene as @Phoenix, I truly believe Nu and B&C will go into the history books as one of the most elaborative crypto scams in history.

[Sentinelrv]

His transformation into @Phoenix has shown his true colors, he continuously uses rhetoric and ad hominem attacks to try and delegitimize any question or anyone that doesn’t sing to his tune. He’s been waging a textbook propaganda war since he came to scene as @Phoenix, I truly believe Nu and B&C will go into the history books as one of the most elaborative crypto scams in history.

Yes, I’ve been saying the same thing in the timeline thread both here and here. It is so obvious at this point that something else is going on that I just cannot fathom why more people here are not calling him out to answer these questions immediately. Instead they just hope to get transparency at some point in the future.

I say WAKE UP! It’s NEVER going to happen unless you speak up and demand answers from him right now, and most likely even then you will hear absolutely nothing, which should tell you everything you need to know. By not speaking up about this, everyone here is literally allowing Jordan to get away with everything and possibly cause misery and financial loss for thousands or tens of thousands of potential future victims. Do you want that on your conscience, that you didn’t do everything you possibly could to get to the bottom of a case of possible massive fraud?

I have even PMed people here for their help and so far I have received no response, which is extremely disappointing. I honestly don’t even know what to say to that. Nobody is willing to stand up to him. It’s like some sick twisted form of Stockholm syndrome. You’re already too invested with Nu, so you just keep taking the psychological beatings from Phoenix hoping that it will all work out in the end. He is financially murdering you all and you don’t even realize it.

[jooize]

I am excited to see some actual digging! With all the ghost wolves I lend little credibility to most of the accusers, but I will avoid disregarding what they say.

Those circumstances being true would mean he faked development funds to gain free shareholdership in B&C Exchange and possibly also Nu. That’s obviously dishonest. It wouldn’t be reprehensible for the creator to take initial ownership, but deceit is the accusation, binary possibility with B&C Exchange, and when this matters.

Careful with “all the evidence is there”, “all the evidence points in one direction”, and saying it’s all obvious. You’re doing a disservice to your cause. You seem to have a legitimate concern about the B&C Exchange fund.

I have even PMed people here

It takes a lot of time and energy to properly evaluate accusations while filtering out all the ones that are thrown in along the way without substance, that are disproven, or between repeated mentions of someone’s view of him as a scammer.

[Sentinelrv]

It takes a lot of time and energy to properly evaluate accusations while filtering out all the ones that are thrown in along the way without substance, that are disproven, or between repeated mentions of someone’s view of him as a scammer.

Fair enough. All I expect is to see people question the man himself when things are brought up like what @Dhume has put forward. Seeing comments from some about “hoping” to get some transparency “at some point” is not what I expect to hear after findings are put forward that appear this serious. It requires an equally serious response. That’s all I’m looking for from people.

[ConfusedObserver]

Nobody is willing to stand up to him.

I’m willing to
But I’m no shareholder and for that reason my concerns are stamped as playing no role. So what?
The voting majority of shareholders isn’t interested in proper accounting.
What does that mean?

Careful with “all the evidence is there”, “all the evidence points in one direction”, and saying it’s all obvious.

Something doesn’t add up and the one who’s able to and obliged to provide information hides behind Angela and shapeshifts.
That’s obvious, isn’t it?

[MaVo]

Jesus, I almost forgot about Angela! I remember the hilarious moment she was introduced for the first time, when everybody wondered who the fuck she is

Maybe Angela is @Henry’s wife, that would make at least a little bit of sense!

[MaVo]

You know what @jooize, you are talking shit like “as long as you can’t prove that @JordanLee is @Phoenix, then Jordan Lee isn’t Phoenix”.

I give a fuck about your view on truth and facts and evidence. How dumb are you? Or better, how corrupt are you as shares are getting printed by “the majority of shareholders” and you are rewarded at the cost of all the people here who lost big time. You got rewarded for denying the truth. All others got punished for telling the truth. You suck so fucking hard. But many people on this forum are very upright. I appreciate the time and effort they put into keeping the truth afloat and give you scammers a hard time to profit from future victims while simultaneously bombarding their own investments with facts that make the value of their shares dump to almost zero.

Even @Cybnate seems to be looking for some freshly printed NSR bonus by denying the damn truth, going for the same route as @jooize “what you can’t prove isn’t true”. JordanLee is Phoenix as much as he scammed everyone involved with Nu and B&C.
@JordanLee is @Phoenix, period. @JordanLee / @Phoenix is a sophisticated scammer, period. Can I provide evidence for the former? No. Can I provide evidence for the latter? No. Does evidence matter? No. Why? Because we are in the unregulated world of crypto. If this bankruptcy happened in real life, the manager of the company would be forced to file for bankruptcy and officials would step in and force @JordanLee to provide accounting numbers on all relevant matters. You might argue he wasn’t the manager. Do you think the regulators would care what kind of funny argument you bring to the table? Whoever possesses the fucking accounting numbers relevant to the matter would be forced to hand them over to the authorities.

In this space, nobody will ever be able to take him to court and nobody will ever force him to publish proper accounting numbers. @JordanLee isn’t guilty? Fine, but that doesn’t prevent him from potentially being sued (in the regulated world), thereby forcing him to present his point of view. Seriously, I would looove to see him argue the same way in front of a court that he argued on this forum. The judges would pee their pants because they couldn’t stop laughing. I just imagine how out of a sudden he appears with a bird costume calling himself @Phoenix in front of the court. My god, this whole forum has turned into a comedy place with a lot of criminal energy still being there. You guys, @jooize and @Phoenix, set out to scam more people. But trust me, we won’t stop telling the truth.

[Cybnate]

Even @Cybnate seems to be looking for some freshly printed NSR bonus by denying the damn truth

Another insinuation without a fact, you are doing great. Very entertaining indeed. Eating a lot of popcorn these days
Where am I looking for NSR BTW, for re-activitating a few social media accounts which have been left behind in disarray by a previous actor or actors? Just trying to get things back into order again so some marketing can be done, just in case things turn out for the better.

And I’m not denying any truths, please point to that where I’m doing that. I believe I’m just carefully trying to entangle the FUD from the facts. There are some interesting scenarios out there which I do encourage as long as they are based on facts. Everyone can make their own assessment based on that, we don’t need others for that.

By now you may have figured out that we generally don’t have courts in cryptospace and Nu was all about anonymous actors from the beginning, we all knew that before investing unless extremely naive. You might have forgotten the “never invest more than you can afford to loose” statements. They were on the website and in the forum at the time.

So only our self imposed NuLaw applies which may need some work but that is another story. If you don’t like that and want legal protection buy shares in Tether or another company which is happy to be subject to the legislation of one country. Then you can happily sue them if they do something you don’t like. If you are from another country you are probably still out of luck, but maybe one of those safely walled gardens suit you better. Tip: there is no perfect world, life is a risk in itself. Sometimes high risk chances work out well, sometimes they don’t.

Just let’s be clear, I’m not protecting anyone here and I’m not blind what may have happened here. There are certainly some red flags especially for B&C funds which needs to be answered or settled in some way. If that doesn’t happen it will all die down anyway and we will have to finally say good bye to our investments.

I’m still looking for a settlement for the B&C shareholders from the Nu Shareholders. With B&C development continuing there is also a good chance that there will be an increase in NSR again. Slim chance? Possibly. But again no gain, without risk and feel free to go next door with less risk. Free market in action.

[Dhume]

I wonder what the small group of still active forum participants thoughts are on Jordan’s (@Phoenix) persistent ignoring of many valid questions.

@jooize, @cryptog, @Sabreiib, @Cybnate what are your thoughts? I would argue that if my allegations are false we would see @Phoenix who seems quite eager to post long posts to come up with an eloquent rebuttal, yet he doesn’t even respond.

[Sabreiib]

Well, the most important is the community, we have salary in real world, we can launch another project in future. If some design is proven wrong, we will avoid it in future.

[Cybnate]

I’m equally disappointed that no reason for the missing B&C funds is given. I’m fine to share my thoughts on it, but it shouldn’t be a revelation to any of you.

The best scenario is that mistakes were made and possibly someone tried to save the situation by making a wrong bet and acting against shareholders’ wishes and making it even worse. Now no one wants to front up to them as they were quite costly mistakes and make whoever who did look bad. Not learning from mistakes and not being prepared doing things differently going forward will ultimately kill the model as anything else which aims to survive in this world. It is interesting human and group behaviour to see in this forum, as Spock would say: Fascinating. Food for thought for psychologists and those philosophising about complex human behaviour. Maybe this clarifies why I call myself an ‘observer’ since joining up with crypto communities. Anyway digressing a bit.

The worst case scenario is that they were just blatantly stolen. The latter doesn’t make much sense to me in the context of all events. And I don’t believe anyone is going to front up to their mistakes either, especially not with a bunch of investors or extremely disappointed, angry and emotional community members around with hay pitches.

There is one other scenario I can think off why there is a gap in the B&C funds. It is possible that some of the funds haven’t been spend effectively on development either through incompetence or lack of clear direction during a sustained amount of time. I believe part of the funds were alos spend less effectively due to the loss of the peg at the time. Anyway, the response by those ‘in charge’ would be the same as the above scenario.

So to answer your question @Phoenix or other major shareholders (if any) would likely not respond as it is not in their interest. So there is a high probability we will see more shape-shifting behaviour soon. So it leaves us all to think for ourselves and draw conclusions. That is the hardest part

I’m ok to invite @phoenix to explain what happened with B&C funds as I bought and still own over 2000 BKS. Don’t hold your breath though.

---

@Phoenix would you be able to provide insights in the B&C spending and clarify the gap between available funds, funds spent to date and the status of the current B&C client as I understand @dhume alludes to?
Or provide any form of accounting (raw of professionally presented) outside what we can find ourselves in the B&C or NSR blockchain? Appreciating your limited time, would you perhaps be able to do this through a trusted intermediary provided the cost of that person would be covered by others?

Or would you prefer to have the above or something similar we can agree to submitted as a motion into the B&C chain?