@Nagalim is right on the above. We’ve seen this occur before with specific motions that go against him. His hidden non-minting shares come out of the woodwork to support him at the last minute. This is the reason why I completely divested myself from the network. The whole voting system in Nu is a farce. He tries to make you think voting is fair and that you are having an actual impact on the process, however it’s only an illusion. There is only one individual that will ever have control of Nu, Jordan Lee/Phoenix. He will never give up this control to anyone else, so I would advise current shareholders to abandon him and the network entirely. It’s just not worth it.
@nagalim and @sentinelrv it looks like you two have become trolls because shareholders didn’t want you to have a role in the Nu network. I am sure that is painful for both of you, but what you are doing is unfair and destructive. It appears you were rejected by shareholders due to your lack of professionalism. That lack is on display here.
You shouldn’t be posting here unless you are engaged constructively. Stop standing in the way of development of stable blockchain currencies and a decentralized exchange. If you aren’t here to build those things, you don’t belong here.
@Sentinelrv you reported on this forum that you sold your entire 1% share of Nu right in the middle of January. It turned out to be within a day or two of the all time low for NuShares, as I recall. I’m sure that is painful and fuels your anger. It would be best to take from the experience a heightened skepticism about following your emotions in matters of investment, as well as other matters.
I contributed a lot to this forum very constructively. I have a home here, as much as you have alienated me. I am calling out what I see as important statements about the process and what it means to be a DAC. I see your personal attacks on me as a ‘troll’ in response to my statement of your overwhelming control over the network as revealing of the potential truth of what I say.
This is partially correct in the fact that “shareholders” equal YOU owning more than 50% of the network. YOU don’t want us here because it makes it easier for you to sell new members on lies and revised history.
Lack of professionalism? First time I’m hearing about this from anyone here. I considered myself a great representative of the Nu Network and tried to sell as many people as I could on its benefits and fairness in voting. I had remained hopeful about its prospects even after the peg failed, up until I realized that I and everyone else here had been conned by you. You are one of the biggest con artists I’ve ever known and your ability to spin and misdirect knows no bounds.
You can never just address the points being made because you know you have no convincing answers, so the best you can do instead of addressing the accusations is to make it all about the accuser, spin, deflect, revise history and throw out ad hominems and falsehoods like you did here. You will NEVER address the questions people have asked of you a million times, because you can’t without looking guilty.
I have no anger that NuShares have risen in price. In fact I have not looked at the price since I sold out and was unaware it had gone up. This network is dead to me, even if it had a billion dollar market cap. I sold out not because of emotion, but upon realizing you defrauded everyone involved with the project. I can’t stand the way you try to mislead and sell everyone on a false vision of fairness in voting where everyone has a say when it is nothing more than an illusion you spin to try and trick people into thinking they are an integral part of the process.
You pretend to want everyone to properly understand your liquidity engine model while at the same time holding a better understanding of it just out of reach and refusing to give more details. My guess is you have no model. You give little details on it, but hold the majority out of reach on purpose in order to make people think you have this ultimate plan when you don’t. It is just a tactic to keep people involved for long enough to carry out your next scam. You are a charlatan and if you ever slip up, there are hundreds of people here that want you locked up and sent to prison.
Phoenix/Jordan is not perfect, but I guess his motivation is good. BTW, @Sentinelrv, It’s because I believed your advocating words to invest B&C in 2015, now you are against this ecosystem.
@Nagalim, your faith was so strong about NBT<->NSR shift mechanism before 2016, and we argued a lot about the issues of Liquidity engine, now you are totally against Nu.
You are still here, without any regret. Perhaps Phoenix also should apologize about not describing the liquidity engine very detailed because even @tomjoad didn’t understand/agree with NSR sales.
If my suggestion is proven to be wrong, I will leave the forum before apologizing to all of you. Is the word “sorry” so difficult to say?
BTW, I think tomjoad and master of disaster are somehow greedy because both of them want to dilute other BKS holders when B&C’s version upgrade in difficulty, remember it.
In my eyes, there is no perfect man in this world. I don’t need to make friends with you, I don’t hope any of you are good person, I just trust mathematics and self interest, that’s the only foundation for a decentralized system as bitcoin.
I mostly agree with @Phoenix but think his numbers for purchasing network control are misleading. Immediately purchasing 400,000,000 NSR at Poloniex would cost around 300 BTC, and 500,000,000 NSR is 460 BTC. 300 BTC is almost $350,000.
@Phoenix is a terrible defender of his potential innocence.
There may just be no answer because he can’t have it unless the answer is him being majority shareholder.
It makes no sense to still argue about what @Phoenix did to recover Nu. FLOT failed to sustain the peg with Tier 6. @Phoenix took Nu out of a hole that nobody else displayed anywhere near ability to do.
Nu is operational, we’ve established how to operate Tier 6, and we’re moving forward with developments. Be a little appreciative of that!
@Phoenix responding saying you’re being emotional from the loss may not be likely to improve the mood, and I’ve adviced him of that. I just can’t see what’s left to be upset about though, and by this point I don’t come up with any other explanation.
Don’t agree, still believe there were other viable scenarios. There have been at least two other motions at the time.[quote=“jooize, post:15, topic:5009”]
responding saying you’re being emotional from the loss may not be likely to improve the mood, and I’ve adviced him of that. I just can’t see what’s left to be upset about though, and by this point I don’t come up with any other explanation.
I agree we need to move on and stop people calling names, take the lessons learnt and rebuild or find another home.
I’m no loger maintaining my datafeed as the last motion basically appointed @Phoenix with all responsibilities and exec power on the network. So there is less point in voting for something unless Phoenix wants to consult the minority shareholders and invites them to do so. I would activate my datafeed when that starts to happen on a regular bases and appears to be serio
I dispute this.
There is a passed motion that permits me to allocate shareholder funds in modest amounts for any purpose that is in shareholder interests. This is very useful, and is the only reason I can legally offer you payment for hosting a Nu client for NuDroid, as an example.
I would like to be more specialized with a smaller scope of activity, but there aren’t enough other people attending to the needs of shareholders at this point to make that practical.
Explain to me how FLOT could have raised 50-100k in a few days with less than 15 BTC on the buyside on Poloniex. Don’t confuse the slow selling of small amounts of NSR over a period of months if not years with the ability to generate large amount of funds in a short interval. We needed to raise at least 50-100k USD in a matter of days to prevent the peg from collapsing which was impossible. Trying to claim that the current method of selling a few hundred bucks a day for months on end is proof that tier 6 works in an emergency situation is absolute nonsense.
No @Phoenix used his illegally obtained shares (which are a voting majority) to remove the largest creditor (B&C exchange) from the Nubit supply and tons of Nubit holders yielded and sold their Nubits back to Nu at a significant loss (selling below 0.20 cents apiece even).
If B&C exchange still held its Nubits and no Nubit holders sold under 1 USD Nu would still be in nearly the exact same hole it was in during the peg collapse.
Nu defaulted and its customers and shareholders ended up paying for that. Tier 6 doesn’t work when we need it most which is the most retarded aspect about this ridiculous model called the liquidity engine. Without revenue Nu is literally a Ponzi scheme and its collapse is inevitable. Trying to restart the Ponzi by finding new unsuspecting customers is disgusting and you are willingly and knowingly aiding this criminal @jooize. Wake up man!
Which shares are these?
@Phoenix posts motion “B&C Exchange should trade all US-NBT for NSR”.
Motion “B&C Exchange should trade all US-NBT for NSR” passes.
Motion passed in Nu: 2016–08–30 22:18 UTC
Motion passed in B&C: 2016–09–03 12:43 UTC
@Phoenix is granted 278,480,580 NSR on behalf of B&C Exchange to
Current balance of that address is 199,441,111 NSR. Including sent to addresses since March 27 there’s:
199,441,111 + 14,951,210 + 3,516,040 + 15,000,000 + 367,910 + 11,220,000 = 244,496,271
Takes forever to scroll beyond that in NuExplorer, so I don’t know where the rest is or what’s up with them.
That address is indeed minting, as @Phoenix has stated publicly at the bottom of a post somewhere, but those are not the shares you’re talking about.
The shares you’re talking about is likely part of the 420,000,000 NSR that @Phoenix was granted before the B&C Exchange grant. He was also granted 3,000,000 NSR for his role as Chief of Liquidity Operations.
There’s no minting directly by those addresses. @Phoenix’s attack vector here is sending NuShares to himself instead of someone who paid for them and relying on us not noticing.
I performed blind auctions and a few direct sales at that time. The last one was Blind Auction NSR #10. I received 13.8 BTC for 15 M NSR. 6.84 BTC from Blind Auction NSR #3. 16.2 BTC for 18 M NSR. 1.2 BTC + 12 BTC from Blind Auction NSR #5.
You claim @Phoenix used those shares or other stolen shares to vote for Nu and B&C Exchange to trade NSR and US-NBT. Prove that claim by matching the amounts of NuShares with sales I have logged and find a discrepancy.
Let’s remember that @Dhume was one of the few individuals contractually obligated to provide liquidity for Nu as a multisig signer last June. He refused to transfer funds according to contract. He broke his contract, broke the law, and destroyed a tremendous quantity of value.
He feels quite defensive about his own serious misconduct. I’m not suggesting @Dhume was malicious. I don’t see any indication of that. He didn’t gain from his misconduct, so there was no aspect of corruption. But what he did do was wrong and destructive, even if it was the result of ignorance. By claiming the system is flawed, he diverts blame from himself, which appears to be his motive for posts such as the above.
The facts speak for themselves. The liquidity engine works brilliantly. Its very powerful and very effective. The capacity of the system to support the peg was not even strained at the time the peg was abandoned. Everything was within healthy parameters. It is ridiculous and unfair to suggest there weren’t funds available to pay full price for NuBits being sold. While any calculation depends on great many factors and assumptions, my guess is Nu had 10, 20 or 30 times as much peg supporting capacity in late May and June as it actually needed to support the peg. The problem was some custodians made the unlawful choice not to even attempt to support the peg. That is a very uncomfortable reality for @Dhume, because it makes him responsible for unlawful and large financial losses.
Honestly, that was not my impression at the time. Unless you assume that selling tens or maybe even hundreds of millions of NSR in a matter of two weeks or so would have resulted in 10, 20 or 30 times as much as the peg. The price would likely have plummeted instantly as it was not really a bullish environment. You can argue about the bottom price which would have been reached though. Probably much lower than the all time low we reached earlier this year is my guess.
I’m with you that FLOT should have at least tried harder given the contract, but it is questionable as above whether the outcome would have been better. The sudden bankrun was already happening.
Edit: would be interested to find out why the person who sold the big chunk of NBT did that. The official reason was that BTC was more bullish. You may read the NBT risk was getting to high given the low reserves and the lack of income/sales. I think to solve this you need to go back to the root cause.
That perception really surprises me. While we will never know, my guess is that if contracts would have been followed and vigorous support for the peg had been consistently attempted, I doubt the NSR price would have dropped below 200 at any point. Dropping below 100 would be almost inconceivable. Then, with faith and confidence intact, we likely would have seen the satoshi price rise from there to new highs on strong NSR buybacks. The difference in outcome is colossal.
Even when majority of shareholders may react rational, if a significant number would act driven by emotions such as panic and sell suddenly, the experienced rationale shareholder would also sell and wait until the market has settled lower and then buy back. This would have created a deep bottom. That is why I would have anticipated a deep spike which may or may not have saved the peg.
I think there is still a vulnerability when significant amounts of NBT are being sold in a short amount of time. The wave of panic it creates cast a long shadow on the perception of peg and the value of NSR and with that the reserves which creates a negative feedback loop.
I support a reserve of 48% as it is way better than 15%, but I believe it should be even higher until significant volumes and sales have been reached. Thinking of at least where Tether is now before 48% is reasonably safe. The risk of single actor selling a significant amount is just too high and has likely a immense negative impact.
I share that concern, but ponder that a NuShare market with expected effects from Nu might make that risk small.
I expect shareholders want to avoid pushing the price down, because it damages perception and directly devalues their investment. There’s likely much more to it, and I hope to see that broken down.
When do you consider the bank run to have begun? I noted the window of time FLOT had to sell NuShares. I’m always keen to hear your opinion of my findings.
I believe that. Nu might have suffered from not being understood and generally lacking investors, but all the support we saw doesn’t make me think of that as a problem.
To handle future decline in NuBit demand we must make sure that Tier 6 is low in friction (quick from NSR/BTC to BTC/US-NBT), its use is gradual, and that the NuShare market understands or believes in Nu. We’ve reduced friction and established a scaling system for sales and buybacks. Do we all think that’s a good system, and can it be improved?
That’s worth considering. I’m fascinated that Nu functioned well with 15% immediate reserves for so long. Large holders shouldn’t want to sell too fast and break the peg as that might trigger a bank run. Our liquidity flow should be designed to have a buffer and operated to make selling aggressively with malicious intent require them to risk their own remaining funds. Can we improve on that?
When the first 50k NBT was sold, which also took a while before it was clear what happened and acted upon. This triggered further sales and downward pressure which FLOT couldn’t keep up with. It would be great to see the dates back on a timeline. Hope you manage to achieve that. It will provide a better insight on how to better act on some of the events we have seen and whether it is actually realistic/feasible.
A simple open-source timeline editor can be found here: http://thetimelineproj.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html. There are better tools but only commercially available.
Unfortunately this has little to do with the sales you’re running. This has been a scam right from the very start. This is why @Phoenix has a majority voting stake in both networks. Not because he actually has shareholders supporting him but because he’s using the shares he stole during the ICO’s to vote for his own motions.
I appreciate the facto seeking and many things you say support a plausible scenario. Current and future investors should keep this in the back of their minds for sure.
A few notes though:
You are contradicting yourself stating earlier that he only has 25-30% and some facts from motion voting that he doesn’t. He may have majority of minting power but that is different.
This conclusion is more an assumption where you state it I believe incorrectly as a fact. However there is no factual proof either way as any form of accounting doesn’t exist which is the underlying issue.
Same problem as above, no transparent accounting of received funds which is different from blockchain transactions.
Bold statements only based on a plausible scenario.
Having said that I would be the first calling for transparency and accountability. I’m just hesitating pulling out accusations without facts even so there are some scenarios pointing in that direction and some red flags. I still hope someone, preferably @phoenix would address those red flags soon or at least other plausible scenarios to the contrary are being presented. This would greatly help to restore trust and would likely significantly increase the share price especially when facts to the contrary are being presented.
I encourage posts seeking facts and possible scenarios so that everyone is at least informed what may have happened here as a warning and understanding the risks. Just let’s be careful with accusations until we do have all the facts and not only plausible or possible scenarios pointing in a direction. I’m still hoping on a story behind a story, but maybe I’m naive.
[quote=“Cybnate, post:27, topic:5009, full:true”]
You are contradicting yourself stating earlier that he only has 25-30% and some facts from motion voting that he doesn’t. He may have majority of minting power but that is different.[/quote]
I meant a majority of minting power.
This conclusion is more an assumption where you state it I believe incorrectly as a fact. However there is no factual proof either way as any form of accounting doesn’t exist which is the underlying issue.[/quote]
Accounting has never existed not because shareholders haven’t asked. You’ll find this forum has been littered for years with requests about accounting and transparency yet none was ever given. Why do you think that is?
They are bold statements but all the evidence points in one direction.
- This group of seed investors has never been “involved” on this forum or in this community and until @Phoenix needed the voting power they didn’t vote or mint either.
- There was no oversight on ICO funds Jordan didn’t even share the addresses that held the development funds even though it would have been no problem publicizing the address that held development funds. He purposefully avoided this so no one except himself knew how many funds there were.
- Explain how a project managed to spend 200K which was the original target and is still far off from even a beta product. No explanation for this has ever been given despite being asked repeatedly for months.
- The people who actually worked on the project didn’t receive even close to the 200K that was supposedly spend. Why do you think Jordan has always meticulously avoided answering this very reasonable request?
His transformation into @Phoenix has shown his true colors, he continuously uses rhetoric and ad hominem attacks to try and delegitimize any question or anyone that doesn’t sing to his tune. He’s been waging a textbook propaganda war since he came to scene as @Phoenix, I truly believe Nu and B&C will go into the history books as one of the most elaborative crypto scams in history.
Yes, I’ve been saying the same thing in the timeline thread both here and here. It is so obvious at this point that something else is going on that I just cannot fathom why more people here are not calling him out to answer these questions immediately. Instead they just hope to get transparency at some point in the future.
I say WAKE UP! It’s NEVER going to happen unless you speak up and demand answers from him right now, and most likely even then you will hear absolutely nothing, which should tell you everything you need to know. By not speaking up about this, everyone here is literally allowing Jordan to get away with everything and possibly cause misery and financial loss for thousands or tens of thousands of potential future victims. Do you want that on your conscience, that you didn’t do everything you possibly could to get to the bottom of a case of possible massive fraud?
I have even PMed people here for their help and so far I have received no response, which is extremely disappointing. I honestly don’t even know what to say to that. Nobody is willing to stand up to him. It’s like some sick twisted form of Stockholm syndrome. You’re already too invested with Nu, so you just keep taking the psychological beatings from Phoenix hoping that it will all work out in the end. He is financially murdering you all and you don’t even realize it.