KTm and jmiller acquired the NSR they purchased or received under circumstances that I do not feel are going to be the norm. For example, how would NuNet burn 100 million NSR?
The same way KTm just did, with the burning mechanism.
If shareholders decide that share buybacks are preferable, they will be dominated in USD (or NBT), not NSR.
Dividends are currently announced in USD terms. Someone like KTm can announce that 50,000 USD worth of dividends need to be distributed. She would then purchase as many PPC as possible with those funds, and then distribute them.
With share buybacks, the same approach would be taken. KTm could announce that 50,000 USD worth of share buybacks will occur. She would then purchase as many NSR as could be purchased with her funds, and then burn them.
This is why having a decentralized exchange built into NuNet would be amazing. During times where demand for nubits is high, fees collected from the exchange could be saved and trustlessly divided amongst shareholders with a simple vote, used to automatically buy and burn nushares, or put into the wall. When Nu is in low demand the fees would be burned instead. Determining when to save vs burn could possibly be automated by the network based on sell/buy walls on the exchange as well.
While calling CCEDK a shareholder desired share buyback is a stretch, I think my concern is the bigger picture. It will take an order of magnitude more revenue to remove NSR from circulation than we receive when we distribute it for under market value. Though, markets can move anywhere. Let us say NSR dropped to a fraction of it’s low price today, then it might be feasible to remove 100 million NSR for the amount of revenue we recently got in the auction, but if we had that kind of revenue for profits, the NSR price would probably not be low.
Every shareholder gets the same value from dividends. It is fair and we do not need to trust that a small group isn’t taking advantage of the situation. There also needs to be a lot more transparency than the last time a custodian bought NSR on the open market. We still do not know what price it was bought at and questions have been discouraged.
I’m not sure I understand your logic, but I’m trying to. Remember that NSR share buybacks would be denominated in USD, not NSR. In my previous example 50,000 USD might buy 1,000,000 NSR or it might buy 100,000,000 NSR. It all depends on the market depth and price elasticity. With a constant (or increasing) demand, the price of NSR should rise when the supply is reduced.
Share buybacks are intended to boost the market price of NuShares, not somehow maintain a preferred equilibrium of NSR supply as is the case with NuBits. As long as the USD value of NSR removed from circulation matches the planned dividend, the net effect is equal.
They get the same USD book value of dividends, not necessarily final value. The final value depends on when a shareholder chooses to convert their PPC dividend to USD. Very rarely would 50,000 USD worth of PPC be available at one spot price in my previous example.
With share buybacks, the same principle applies; every shareholder receives the same bump in book value of their NuShares. As I mentioned before, the primary difference and benefit is that this bump is publicly visible on CMC, as opposed to only communicated to shareholders who received the dividend.
I don’t think questions are ever discouraged on this forum. We try not to be an echo chamber. If you have concerns about the manner in which @jmiller hedged against shareholder loss, you are always welcome to raise the concern in a post. If you believe he acted unethically then you have every right to question it. My own belief is that Jamie operated as best he could in a time of great uncertainty - when shareholder funds were bleeding rapidly from BTC depreciation - and he made a judgement call to convert part of the BTC to an asset (NSR) that appeared to be rising opposite of BTC. One cryptojournalist covered that phenomenon here: http://dcmagnates.com/nushares-lone-bright-spot-in-sea-of-red-continue-winning-streak-into-2015/
I see this questioning a form of post-action reviewing leading toward future improvement, It’s part of community learning prpocess.
Try and imagine how long it will be for the recent dilution hit we all just took to get burned off instead of how many dollars are being spent on the NSR order books.
I understand the following:
- This site is no longer up to date: https://nubits.com/nushares/introduction
- There are no more dividends.
- There are about 60% of the money of investors destroyed.
3.b Obviously no NSR be bought back.
- There is no plan
current: 1 btc = $ 250/1 NSR = 0.000013 / 0.0000123 btc
What portion needs to be updated? Are you referring to this: “1,000,000,000 initial NuShares have been created, and this supply will increase at a rate of approximately 2% per year.”
If so, I agree, that needs to be re-written to clarify the NSR supply metrics:
There are no dividends scheduled for distribution at this time; this does not mean that there will never be another dividend.
How do you arrive at this number, and who are the “investors” you are referring to in this case?
This is a random comment with no supporting evidence. NSR buy-backs conducted by custodians to then be burned are a mechanism that could be used by the network, but unless I’m completely missing something, has never been a publicly stated commitment by any of the active custodians.
To have a plan one needs to understand what is being planned for – you enumerated a list of items but didn’t explain what you are alluding to. Help us understand your concerns so we can appropriately respond.
CMC lists the average price of NSR over the last 24 hours as 0.00001400 BTC/NSR ($ 0.003523/NSR). This certainly isn’t the highest that it has traded for, but it also isn’t the lowest.
It’s clear it’s been a pretty dismal last couple of weeks – there are obvious effects of the loss of confidence in (or outright availability of) our previously active NSR markets on BTER, CCEDK, and Excoin, coupled with the net effect that the 100M NSR auction had on demand and pricing.
CMC lists the average price of NSR over the last 24 hours as 0.00001400 BTC/NSR ($ 0.003523/NSR).
Recent days trade had very small volume. about two hours ago somebody put 400k NSR on sale for 0.00001238 on Bter, so that is real price. and it is far too low.
am i wrong or this has something to do with recent tender of 100M NSR?? Is somebody who bought new nushares selling them and lowering the price?
Anything is possible. I believe it’s less likely that it is recently acquired NSR being put on the market that is the catalyst for the lower price and that it has more to do with the ~100M NSR worth of “demand” that was met off-market.
2015-03-26 18:33:54 Sell 0.00001179 nsr 3953.91594877 btc 0.04661666
If you feel NSR are over-valued, the rational choice is to sell. If you feel NSR are under-valued, the rational choice is to buy. If you feel the Nu network is under-performing relative to its potential, introduce motions or vote for new custodians.
Shareholders are owed nothing except the value they create.
Personally, I think it was a huge mistake for the grants maintained by @KTm and @jmiller to lose the dividend feature. Shareholders need an incentive to do their part in maintaining the health of the network … not to mention that a lot of shareholders have an interest in providing support to Peercoin. I can say that my personal investment decisions had a lot to do with this feature of the protocol.
I have put together this motion for the shareholders who would prefer dividends to NSR buy backs. It will not change any current proposals, but it will make sure your voice is heard if it passes.
I don’t know if “prefer” is the right way to express my opinion … buy backs are great! I just think there should be some kind of indication of when dividends might happen again if we expect anyone to make serious investment plans. I never purchase dividend stocks that don’t consistently issue dividends on a verifiable schedule.
Dividend has not been and should not be phased out. It is used to valuate share price to many people.
To be clear, from everything I’ve read and from the discussions that I’ve had with others in the community, the complete removal of the dividends function from Nu has never been proposed, publicly or privately. In case there is confusion about it, however, I’d like to offer my take on Nu dividends.
I’m just one voice out of many, but I feel that it is important for the Nu shareholders to hear from people who have worked on the product.
Retaining the ability to issue dividends is critical. The Nu shareholders should consider themselves part of a rationale, profit-seeking enterprise.
I will not support any movement by shareholders that attempts to remove the dividends functionality from the Nu protocol. The ability to issue dividends to shareholders is a fundamental component of the system that we’ve built. Dividends, along with NBT/NSR burning, NSR buy-backs, and NBT parking, are valuable tools that the Nu network can utilize to grow and adjust to the ever-changing environment(s) in which it operates.
Additionally, I want to stress that I, personally, cannot in good conscience support paying dividends at the expense of NuBit users. It’s uncomfortable to be sure (especially in these early days), but if we ever want to see wide-spread adoption of NBT (or another Nu network currency unit) as a transactional token, users must be able to have confidence that they can trade in and out of them at ~$1.00/NBT without friction.
Nu needs to be run by the shareholders like it is a rationale enterprise. It’s not rationale for a business to offer dividends when there is no profit to distribute; therefore it follows that dividends should not be scheduled if those dividends aren’t coming out of the network’s profit.
Nu is expected to be grow over time so early profit-taking at the expense of the network’s long-term health is to me, very short-sighted. Nu shareholders need to be able to justify their investment, to be sure, and being able to predictably offer dividends is a very public way of declaring the network’s health, but please always remember where those dividends come from. I implore each and every NSR holder today to work with us develop new network strategies to devise ways that the network can generate profits. Here’s your chance to help contribute to the emergence of a different type of finanical system – one that combines the best of the current one with innovations and inventions that are uniquely possible with blockchain technology.
Long-term I’d like to see discussions about expanding the types of dividends that can be offered by the network. We’ve seen evidence already that the Nu network exhibits emergent behaviors. Being able to provide shareholders multiple avenues for investment income should exist, depending on the source of the profits–be it in a crypto token, a NSR “split” or redistribution of network acquired shares, or at some point in the future, a way of moving fiat across the network directly.
 If NBT parking has value could NSR “parking” have additional benefits to the network’s ability to operate, too? Off the top of my head I can only think of a very narrow set of circumstances where it would be useful, but I don’t see that as being a reason why it should not be considered.
 I should also point out that I am a believer in the Nu white paper’s statement that this peg is held at $1.00/NBT – as a measure of USD. That NuBot had to adapt to support NBT/crypto pairings may have been a necessity at the time, but going forward I believe it’s in the shareholder’s best interests to identify ways to build gateways to bring fiat directly into the system and let organic arbitrage markets develop that can cover the conversion of cryptoX into NBT.
I agree with Ben on all the points he raised. I’ve never felt comfortable with the dividends coming from selling NuBits and don’t consider them profit. It’s just bad for the long-term health of the network and to continue doing this would be very short-sighted as Ben said.
I still think that loaning will become a huge part of the Nu network in the future. I’m just not sure how something like this would be setup. One idea that always comes to mind is that there would be Nu loan custodians that operate their own businesses whether online or more traditional brick and mortar “NuBanks”. Another example would be (higher risk but higher profit) venture capitalist custodians that are continuously able to judge what has real value from what doesn’t.
We would have partnerships with people and businesses like this all around the world and work closely with them. Somehow shareholders would be able to profit from this extended network of people and businesses. I’m not sure exactly how. That is something that needs to be explored, but I imagine shareholders would be providing some sort of services for them and collecting a certain amount of profit which can then be used for dividends. This is what I mean when I talk about REAL business, profit that has been made outside of the network through providing services and working with business partners toward their goals. I hope you get the picture.
We are looking for a way to earn money with Nushare? Why do not we make a conservative foreign exchange market? We buy and sell different currencies. The courses adapt automatically.
If someone makes a journey, he can change money at no time and goes to the ATM and gets it out.
If someone lives in a country with a lot of inflation, he changes his money against Nubits. and so on.
So you can make money. Nushare is then the share capital.
Nushare would have a clear value, a legally verifiable income. and may also pay dividends.
We need a banking license. Reserves, collateral, etc.
No purchase house works well if it does not offer its own products.
Let us be a bank that offers stable currency systems. … Like Nu