Current Liquidity

[zoro]

Currently i operate in buy side. (crossing my fingers that polo will not follow cryptsy!)
I have a very small amount of NBT
I wouldn’t worry much about the peg since BTC is “stable” these days.

[dysconnect]

Nu should aim to be preemptive. There are at least several hours from proposing a transaction to actually settling it. At least, for tiers 2 and 3, it’s important to do it regularly when either side is low, in case of a sudden drop.

It’s actually much less pain to do semi-regular trades with tiers 2 and 3 than checking liquidity and ALix all the time, but that didn’t gain traction.

“On-demand” trades are hard to do especially because the choices we have for tier 3 are very limited, and I still haven’t been able to negotiate terms with NuLagoon Tube, and nobody else seems interested in adding their voices.

Whenever I see a low sell side and high Tether volume (often several 100k), I feel we have lost a lot of potential NBT sales. Even having 5k on sell side on Poloniex isn’t enough; the spreads and slow response of Nubot don’t trigger any desire to send BTC in to the exchange to buy more NBT. I mean tomjoad mentioned people wanting to buy 10k’s of NBT from him when Poloniex still has some NBT hanging in sell-side.

Most of the liquidity on other exchanges mostly just sit there doing nothing. If I have to count endangerment to the peg, lost sales and overall frustration of NBT users, I only look at Poloniex; looking at overall percentage is already a compromise to that principle.

[masterOfDisaster]

Nu should aim to be preemptive.

I fully second that.

Whenever I see a low sell side and high Tether volume (often several 100k), I feel we have lost a lot of potential NBT sales. Even having 5k on sell side on Poloniex isn’t enough; the spreads and slow response of Nubot don’t trigger any desire to send BTC in to the exchange to buy more NBT. I mean tomjoad mentioned people wanting to buy 10k’s of NBT from him when Poloniex still has some NBT hanging in sell-side.

That sounds to me like a plea for increasing the liquidity volume on Poloniex making Nu even more dependent on it.
I recognize the important role of Poloniex for Nu’s liquidity situation.
Otherwise I’d have made the gateways for another exchange.

But each NBT Nu sells (T4 -> T1-3) brings BTC to Nu’s accounting and currently there’s no way to have an extensive insurance for BTC volatility.
As long as there’s no viable insurance for the BTC volatility risk (NuSafe is a step into the right direction), I’m not that keen on increasing Nu’s exposure to BTC volatility by increasing the volume on exchanges.

I’d rather focus on improving the liquidity model, (e.g. with T3 custodians), ways to hedge/insure against BTC volatility and fixed cost compensation scheme to make volume on buy and sell side more reliable when trying to be preemptive.

[zoro]

I second that. Moreover don’t forget that Tether is 100% centralized and thus a high risk coin. And also we cannot just set a 100k NBT wall in polo, very high risk!
If some private investors want to have a large amount of NBT, then it would make more sense to directly
transact with T4. Then T4 will act as a temporary exchange with very low risk (only risk will be the volatility of BTC), but then again this is not a very good idea.
Anyway, we have to wait for B&C

[dysconnect]

That sounds to me like a plea for increasing the liquidity volume on Poloniex making Nu even more dependent on it.

I also personally support services like NuLagoon Tube. I accept liquidity on other exchanges for risk mitigation, but the reality is that a very low liquidity on Poloniex is still going to be disproportionately bad for Nu compared on other exchanges. Keeping Poloniex refilled is t2-3’s job but low Polo liquidity should be a consideration of some weight.

Nu also needs growth. Nu should keep establishing itself as the go-to solution when people want to buy a stable coin, but that’s not going to happen if people have trouble buying NBT when they want to. It’s hard to justify the high-cost liquidity operations if we don’t use it fully; especially under a fixed-cost model where it costs money even when one side of the wall of empty.

I’ve also stressed on the importance of balance to volatility exposure for pools. Pool interest rates and the risk perception of participants are often adjusted to worst case volatility losses rather than the average case; balancing frequently allows us to discover and consider lower interest rate thresholds for ALP.

[mhps]

I’d rather focus on improving the liquidity model, (e.g. with T3 custodians)

That is the better structured and methodical way to move forward. Daily management of individual LP’s liquidity is the job of T3’s.

[cryptog]

ALiX will report that as a very big bid on that particular exchange while the liquidity report of the Nu wallet is not aware of that. That BTC seller has no custodial address to broadcast liquidity.

What should we do?

Very good point. I think we should using both.
Liquidity rpc gives us the background, constant (comparatively) liquidity provided by providers officially recognized by Nu.
ALiX gives us the total liquidity : sporadic + background.[quote=“dysconnect, post:997, topic:1239”]
Keeping Poloniex refilled is t2-3’s job but low Polo liquidity should be a consideration of some weight.

Nu also needs growth. Nu should keep establishing itself as the go-to solution when people want to buy a stable coin, but that’s not going to happen if people have trouble buying NBT when they want to.
[/quote]

I think I second that. It is clear that the vast majority of the trade volume occurs at Polo according to https://alix.coinerella.com/volume/gui_index.php
I feel we lose opportunities to make some NuBits sales.
We need to take a bit more risk in order to increase our market share.
Of course, at the same time, as a hedge, we need to maintain liquidity on other exchanges too.
I would support a motion that calls for a moderate increase of liquidity that goes into Polo.

[dysconnect]

@assistant liquidity

[masterOfDisaster]

nud getliquidityinfo B | head -n 19
{
    "total" : {
        "buy" : 70509.6371,
        "sell" : 89575.3389
    },
    "tier" : {
        "1" : {
            "buy" : 40466.6125,
            "sell" : 47364.7139
        },
        "2" : {
            "buy" : 4042.64,
            "sell" : 13760.625
        },
        "3" : {
            "buy" : 25998.8846,
            "sell" : 28450.0
        }
    },

[zoro]

2016-01-07 09:57:47 Sell 0.00221527 **11499.78800000 ** 25.47513536
This kind of trades in Polo change immediately any plans about balancing

[masterOfDisaster]

BTCUSD went up by approximately 5% in the last few hours, but interestingly the NBTBTC volume is rather unaffected:

And the liquidity situation is (lacking volume) stable:

nud getliquidityinfo B | head -n 19
{
    "total" : {
        "buy" : 64974.5566,
        "sell" : 97642.0781
    },
    "tier" : {
        "1" : {
            "buy" : 34761.4355,
            "sell" : 51844.4581
        },
        "2" : {
            "buy" : 2644.66,
            "sell" : 13705.62
        },
        "3" : {
            "buy" : 27566.9611,
            "sell" : 32092.0
        }
    },

[willy]

Just a quick hint: ALix volume is updated daily.
No live data there.

[cryptog]

“total_buy”:61696.2973,“total_sell”:95811.6813,"

[zoro]

We have to destroy some NBT. FLOT i have more than 8K NBT to trade for BTC

p.s.
i can’t see NBT in coinmarketcap!

[masterOfDisaster]

Overall liquidity situation changed immensely according to the broadcast information:

date
Fri Jan  8 09:12:32 UTC 2016
nud getliquidityinfo B | head -n 19
{
    "total" : {
        "buy" : 61179.2584,
        "sell" : 100221.3955
    },
    "tier" : {
        "1" : {
            "buy" : 31171.7315,
            "sell" : 47288.1684
        },
        "2" : {
            "buy" : 1779.6,
            "sell" : 20841.2271
        },
        "3" : {
            "buy" : 28226.4269,
            "sell" : 32092.0
        }
    },

Comparing this with the liquidity information from ALix I wonder whether there is liquidity information broadcast that doesn’t really exist.

I urge all custodians that broadcast liquidity information to check whether there is liquidity information broadcast that doesn’t match the reality!

edit:
Just in case someone has need for it, I fired up the buy side gateway on Poloniex (as well as the sell side gateway, although I don’t see need for that at the moment).
I’m not going to create a tx to the gateway account though, because

• I’m the operator of this gateway which poses risk to Nu (exchange default, no collateral) and I don’t want to initiate such transfers any longer; I feel responsible for it
• I don’t want to strengthen the impression that it’s the FLOT’s job to deal with such situations
• I want to fuel the development of alternatives such as
  [Withdrawn] T3 Trusted Custodianship @Nagalim or
  [Passed] T3 Trusted Custodianship: @Nagalim - Second Attempt

edit2:
In case the FLOT might want to initiate a deposit to the buy side (NBT exit) gateway, here’s a prepared tx (which I did just create, not sign):
20 BTC to the Poloniex buy side gateway account

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

[cryptog]

Tks a lot for creating the tx for initiating a potential 20BTC deposit to your Polo NBT exit gateway.

Right now, the overall liquidity fluctuates towards: total_buy":54571.0976,“total_sell”:101728.1166,

On Polo, we have: Poloniex BTC/NBT 21321.6399 sell 9387.6021 buy

I think we definitively need to deposit 10000NBT worth of BTC to the buy side of Polo.

Therefore, I have signed the tx. 1/5 required co-signers.

[masterOfDisaster]

Ok, I’ve signed as well.

0100000004412f62d93305485a7f622f6dc93227bf09cbc47512bec26a8ff74d989320ff4102000000fda80100473044022021d7cba064f84907d5c684ce25b91cb3a9f9d85d027a5c166cf6c9489a8132a00220436a2cc2b51168ff32acf4c30b5df6beebe551fd728667968f0596b2d1cd1e1e01483045022100a48a81ea082b2ccd0f99940441a0df88519875798f1ac8fcacc76508e60faac902203aed91aee74ccb50a1cc1e01eaf49364e15f1322e67aa3fd46d6ce3288a57477014d130155210234139729dd413c84a71a0bfd6f236790be861b37311cef3240277c940e4b0c072102435b894b94b4b27dd24436b3f9ad0b9409d855ab4be6e91141d445804e84750b2102e2fcdfe246e9cd4864d9119b8af465487385eccd0ea30a8cb21d44d36818189f210312cd6eb361c9ebb0d90e44946492a237eab4c7a7d88a0db800f2f460937cc22f21034b0bd0f653d4ac0a2e9e81eb1863bb8e5743f6cb1ea40d845b939c225a1a80ff2103661a4370dfcfbcea25d1800057220f4572b6eecab95bb0670e8676a9e34451dc2103a5fc09a5de595e4758bfbc3a932e2c448cc49a557dd6e64788cee530a76225212103da8082062298c40f0b473b74f3c95b57eaaebe3e67ed30ce56347b2e727915fb58aeffffffff5a8e966c59b6bf2d350394d4ad73a66dae33ba2c3fbc2f49ff06d5b0fdbff73704000000fda8010047304402201523b01f6ce13f5b35067f0448f9c8b030258cc41967221233c35e583219232b022043537bd936a2aa6f7c091624e042e47a7ed512d7d099489bbf746f5c1ee59331014830450221008d9566e984ab145decd3ce9e2b427067379d3cd12b56b26a7ef0cacc69cadc0f022035f5873e8320a9b4d7aaf2bd5f51c6660b292ce5227eb62b60dcb641377ace79014d130155210234139729dd413c84a71a0bfd6f236790be861b37311cef3240277c940e4b0c072102435b894b94b4b27dd24436b3f9ad0b9409d855ab4be6e91141d445804e84750b2102e2fcdfe246e9cd4864d9119b8af465487385eccd0ea30a8cb21d44d36818189f210312cd6eb361c9ebb0d90e44946492a237eab4c7a7d88a0db800f2f460937cc22f21034b0bd0f653d4ac0a2e9e81eb1863bb8e5743f6cb1ea40d845b939c225a1a80ff2103661a4370dfcfbcea25d1800057220f4572b6eecab95bb0670e8676a9e34451dc2103a5fc09a5de595e4758bfbc3a932e2c448cc49a557dd6e64788cee530a76225212103da8082062298c40f0b473b74f3c95b57eaaebe3e67ed30ce56347b2e727915fb58aeffffffff779db2e54e53a574bd1d52f0141c419084a2a389454f5f7d4f001a3c93c8118f02000000fda701004730440220584af9e98f6c6ff103d7771b043f2b818056826cd3b06c9dbae52334e411390f022032375f1c89095396d9e017f41e5170a8cb91602fcc537d8b9d633c64c0f9d64401473044022071dab99e4a930eb752d699d2288b8cb83fdabba0b8265c690af590c47ffafb3502205b6fb17c94ddcc2f09205a8a385cffba882236a228d7a3aa61a33adfba150179014d130155210234139729dd413c84a71a0bfd6f236790be861b37311cef3240277c940e4b0c072102435b894b94b4b27dd24436b3f9ad0b9409d855ab4be6e91141d445804e84750b2102e2fcdfe246e9cd4864d9119b8af465487385eccd0ea30a8cb21d44d36818189f210312cd6eb361c9ebb0d90e44946492a237eab4c7a7d88a0db800f2f460937cc22f21034b0bd0f653d4ac0a2e9e81eb1863bb8e5743f6cb1ea40d845b939c225a1a80ff2103661a4370dfcfbcea25d1800057220f4572b6eecab95bb0670e8676a9e34451dc2103a5fc09a5de595e4758bfbc3a932e2c448cc49a557dd6e64788cee530a76225212103da8082062298c40f0b473b74f3c95b57eaaebe3e67ed30ce56347b2e727915fb58aeffffffffafd70ac9ed94f107d8551887cd1bf0ea3224a32424fb8b536c7ec3c27d08728802000000fda7010047304402203833b3414ece3f76b08b3265c3592b7dd561e98081e2fe8a2392df3085ff29e6022026eea8a84b36cb758de5155f364d11b845552b0a2bdaaf4cd7423bc7b649e31d014730440220143f7a4f8045119da698c080991c30274575c441cca270c19e54025a4f4acbe80220234cc14e3239e86642fdfb1b3839c4397bc09b68635fce50acc009795315b713014d130155210234139729dd413c84a71a0bfd6f236790be861b37311cef3240277c940e4b0c072102435b894b94b4b27dd24436b3f9ad0b9409d855ab4be6e91141d445804e84750b2102e2fcdfe246e9cd4864d9119b8af465487385eccd0ea30a8cb21d44d36818189f210312cd6eb361c9ebb0d90e44946492a237eab4c7a7d88a0db800f2f460937cc22f21034b0bd0f653d4ac0a2e9e81eb1863bb8e5743f6cb1ea40d845b939c225a1a80ff2103661a4370dfcfbcea25d1800057220f4572b6eecab95bb0670e8676a9e34451dc2103a5fc09a5de595e4758bfbc3a932e2c448cc49a557dd6e64788cee530a76225212103da8082062298c40f0b473b74f3c95b57eaaebe3e67ed30ce56347b2e727915fb58aeffffffff0231e09d010000000017a914f716edbaa472c1470d36a3e78b17a4c9bb547fcf8700943577000000001976a914dbe7d2d197b4676639f1fd84d9db45676eaa04cb88ac00000000

[jooize]

Verified and signed by cryptog + masterOfDisaster + jooize.

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@Dhume, @dysconnect, @mhps, @ttutdxh, @woodstockmerkle

[woodstockmerkle]

Signed, 4 of 5-of-8

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@Dhume, @dysconnect, @mhps, @ttutdxh

[masterOfDisaster]

Just for the fun of making post no. 1000 in this thread