Current Liquidity

[zoro]

I need an advice. What do you consider as the maximum “safe” spread for buy walls in Poloniex gateways?
In order to avoid large sales of US-NBT due to BTC’s halvation and the speculation of its “increase?” in value?

[Nagalim]

Do you mean Tier 1 or Tier 2?

[zoro]

Tier 1

[mhps]

When the wall is highly imbalanced, do all pool operators agree that it’s profitable to Nu and fair to the trader/users to set the parametric order book so that most liquidity is provided at a large spread (e.g. 5%)?

@woolly_sammoth @willy @Henry @Cybnate @Nagalim

[henry]

most liquidity is provided at a large spread (e.g. 5%)?

We think a large spread could be applied when BTC is of high volatility in short term. However, we don’t support using wide spread to handle an imbalanced wall situation. And it’s even worst for the profit purpose.

[masterOfDisaster]

The spread of my Poloniex NuBot is already at approx 4% (offset 0.02 each side - exchange fees).
I’ll increase the offset to 0.025 during the next maintenance.

[mhps]

And it’s even worst for the profit purpose.

Why? We give nearly free liquidity for speculators to feast on. Taking a cut from their profit seems fine to me. It’s business. There are 120k nbt on the sell side. If in an price cycle 50% of them get traded with the wall twice, Nu will receive 6k profit from a 5% spread. Actually think how much sell side liquidity will be pulled if a 5% spread is applied – it would dull sharp wall imbalance.

Of course nbt will be less attractive with a 5% spread. 5% is just an example number. My point is that it should be a tune’able parameter to find the best spot.

[henry]

Why?

Just because that may reduce the demand of Nubits in long term.

First and foremost, do you agree on that the movement of Bitcoin price is unpredictable? If yes, speculators doesn’t always make profit against NuBits liquidity providers. They just make transactions, keeping buying and selling NBTs. if there is higher spread for them to sell NBT today, they will be less willing to buy NBT in future.

The reason for wide spread when BTC is in volatility is just because we don’t have a clear BTC price in US Dollars in consensus. Otherwise, that wouldn’t be the case neither.

[mhps]

can we agree on that the movement of Bitcoin price is unpredictable? If yes, speculatetors doesn’t always make profit against NuBits liquidity providers.

This is a common mistake. Nu will inevitably lose

[Closed] Motion to cease shareholder-funded NBT/PPC operations

@cryptog Not quite. The theory that everything will average out over the longterm, as prices go up and down, relies on the incorrect assumption that all traders have no idea what they’re doing and all buying and selling is completely random. Imagine this extreme example: PPC = $2 Custodian holds 1000 NBT and 0 PPC. Custodian value = $1000 USD. PPC sellers buy all of the 1000 NBT, leaving our custodian with 0 NBT and 500 PPC. PPC declines to $1. Custodian value = 500 NBT. PPC goes up …

Nu must actively generate profit to survive.

[henry]

This is a common mistake. Nu will inevitably lose

But at least we, as Nu LPs, are unable to predict the price of Bitcoin, right? Move to the same side of speculators or stand at the opposite side of them. We can’t say which one is right.

[dysconnect]

I did hold the belief that walls can’t really be gamed, up till some point there was empirical evidence suggesting otherwise. First there’s arbitrage; I often see big sales or purchases occurring after a big price change. Then there’s the fact that speculation can amount to self-fulfilling prophecy. Peerchemist’s example isn’t very suitable for illustrating this though. Walls are only part of the picture - we need various forms of taxes and fees.

[masterOfDisaster]

We might not be able to predict price movement, but we can predict the gain from trades at a certain spread!

Liquidity; ALix T1 + gateways (poloniex dual side, numerous sell side):

Mon Apr 18 20:44:13 UTC 2016

status of the gateways in total:
bid total 30554 USD, bid side ratio 46%
ask total 34821 USD, ask side ratio 53%

status of the ALP last 15 minutes:
bid total 31210 USD, bid side ratio 26%
ask total 84950 USD, ask side ratio 73%

status of the ALP last 4 hours:
bid total 29836 USD, bid side ratio 25%
ask total 88084 USD, ask side ratio 74%

status of the total liquidity; gateways and ALP (last 15 minutes):
bid total 61764 USD, bid side ratio 34%
ask total 119771 USD, ask side ratio 65%

status of the total liquidity; gateways and ALP (last 4 hours):
bid total 60390 USD, bid side ratio 32%
ask total 122905 USD, ask side ratio 67%

Gateway status at Poloniex (dual side), NuLagoon MLP at Poloniex and several sell side only exchanges

Mon Apr 18 20:44:15 UTC 2016
status of mOD dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BFGMPykfKxXZ1otrCZcsbnTwJjKHPP9dsP -A 2
        "BFGMPykfKxXZ1otrCZcsbnTwJjKHPP9dsP" : {
            "buy" : 15674.65,
            "sell" : 15463.6728
status of zoro dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BJs4YbtaqCmxeHLiR6zzjnZEotYVFAPfMo -A 2
        "BJs4YbtaqCmxeHLiR6zzjnZEotYVFAPfMo" : {
            "buy" : 12553.07,
            "sell" : 13801.8995
status of Cybnate dual side PyBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep B954pkUEdkeT1G5Lq14Cisij5no3RVxHYe -A 20 | grep poloniex -A 2
        "1:NBTBTC:poloniex:LiquidBits" : {
            "buy" : 0.0,
            "sell" : 533.3333
status of Cybnate dual side PyBot at Bittrex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep B954pkUEdkeT1G5Lq14Cisij5no3RVxHYe -A 20 | grep bittrex -A 2
        "1:NBTBTC:bittrex:LiquidBits" : {
            "buy" : 2327.5,
            "sell" : 1000.0
status of NuLagoon dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep BTRnV9uLSPVJw4jn1JMV2Ki2cfFqPYip9o -A 1000 | grep poloniex -A 2 | tail -n 1  | awk -F':' ... and some more stuff
        "1:NBTBTC:poloniex:0.3.2a_1460931401770_91c641" : {
            "buy" : 6000.0,
            "sell" : 6000.0
--
        "2:NBTBTC:poloniex:0.3.2a_1460931401770_91c641" : {
            "buy" : 1455.25,
            "sell" : 120.6334
status of huafei sell side only NuBot at bter
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BRUuKfGur7CZSLy65gYUPJUQyQZeT1XQnD -A 2
        "BRUuKfGur7CZSLy65gYUPJUQyQZeT1XQnD" : {
            "buy" : 0.08,
            "sell" : 2025.0529
status of mOD single side NuBot at hitbtc:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep BETwD8nSjtj9ADSvej2na34xmsMYwPRymv -A 1000 | grep hitbtc | tail -n 1 | awk -F':' ...and some more stuff'
        "1:NBTBTC:hitbtc:0.4.1_1460672310148_655c2c" : {
            "buy" : 0.0,
            "sell" : 500.0
--
        "2:NBTBTC:hitbtc:0.4.1_1460672310148_655c2c" : {
            "buy" : 0.07,
            "sell" : 1499.936

[mhps]

Move to the same side of speculators or stand at the opposite side of them. We can’t say which one is right.

The above quoted post showed that we can say in the end we are designed to be on the wrong side – BTC price rises because there are more active buys than active sells. And the wall is designed to sell to those buys. vice versa.

[masterOfDisaster]

Trading 47 BTC for NBT complete; sides are not perfectly balanced, but…

Liquidity; ALix T1 + gateways (poloniex dual side, numerous sell side):

Tue Apr 19 05:52:05 UTC 2016

status of the gateways in total:
bid total 28873 USD, bid side ratio 43%
ask total 38189 USD, ask side ratio 56%

status of the ALP last 15 minutes:
bid total 50519 USD, bid side ratio 43%
ask total 65752 USD, ask side ratio 56%

status of the ALP last 4 hours:
bid total 46278 USD, bid side ratio 38%
ask total 74359 USD, ask side ratio 61%

status of the total liquidity; gateways and ALP (last 15 minutes):
bid total 79392 USD, bid side ratio 43%
ask total 103941 USD, ask side ratio 56%

status of the total liquidity; gateways and ALP (last 4 hours):
bid total 75151 USD, bid side ratio 40%
ask total 112548 USD, ask side ratio 59%

Gateway status at Poloniex (dual side), NuLagoon MLP at Poloniex and several sell side only exchanges

Tue Apr 19 05:52:10 UTC 2016
status of mOD dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BFGMPykfKxXZ1otrCZcsbnTwJjKHPP9dsP -A 2
        "BFGMPykfKxXZ1otrCZcsbnTwJjKHPP9dsP" : {
            "buy" : 15669.87,
            "sell" : 15463.6728
status of zoro dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BJs4YbtaqCmxeHLiR6zzjnZEotYVFAPfMo -A 2
        "BJs4YbtaqCmxeHLiR6zzjnZEotYVFAPfMo" : {
            "buy" : 10644.53,
            "sell" : 15702.6386
status of Cybnate dual side PyBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep B954pkUEdkeT1G5Lq14Cisij5no3RVxHYe -A 20 | grep poloniex -A 2
        "1:NBTBTC:poloniex:LiquidBits" : {
            "buy" : 0.0,
            "sell" : 2000.0
status of Cybnate dual side PyBot at Bittrex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep B954pkUEdkeT1G5Lq14Cisij5no3RVxHYe -A 20 | grep bittrex -A 2
        "1:NBTBTC:bittrex:LiquidBits" : {
            "buy" : 2560.3301,
            "sell" : 1000.0
status of NuLagoon dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep BTRnV9uLSPVJw4jn1JMV2Ki2cfFqPYip9o -A 1000 | grep poloniex -A 2 | tail -n 1  | awk -F':' ... and some more stuff
        "1:NBTBTC:poloniex:0.3.2a_1461035023578_7a2c26" : {
            "buy" : 12000.0,
            "sell" : 0.0
--
        "2:NBTBTC:poloniex:0.3.2a_1461035023578_7a2c26" : {
            "buy" : 1895.01,
            "sell" : 0.6334
status of huafei sell side only NuBot at bter
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BRUuKfGur7CZSLy65gYUPJUQyQZeT1XQnD -A 2
        "BRUuKfGur7CZSLy65gYUPJUQyQZeT1XQnD" : {
            "buy" : 0.08,
            "sell" : 2025.0529
status of mOD single side NuBot at hitbtc:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep BETwD8nSjtj9ADSvej2na34xmsMYwPRymv -A 1000 | grep hitbtc | tail -n 1 | awk -F':' ...and some more stuff'
        "1:NBTBTC:hitbtc:0.4.1_1460672310148_655c2c" : {
            "buy" : 0.0,
            "sell" : 500.0
--
        "2:NBTBTC:hitbtc:0.4.1_1460672310148_655c2c" : {
            "buy" : 0.07,
            "sell" : 1499.936

[masterOfDisaster]

Liquidity; ALix T1 + gateways (poloniex dual side, numerous sell side):

Tue Apr 19 21:01:23 UTC 2016

status of the gateways in total:
bid total 28364 USD, bid side ratio 43%
ask total 36760 USD, ask side ratio 56%

status of the ALP last 15 minutes:
bid total 60185 USD, bid side ratio 47%
ask total 67250 USD, ask side ratio 52%

status of the ALP last 4 hours:
bid total 61400 USD, bid side ratio 47%
ask total 66627 USD, ask side ratio 52%

status of the total liquidity; gateways and ALP (last 15 minutes):
bid total 88549 USD, bid side ratio 45%
ask total 104010 USD, ask side ratio 54%

status of the total liquidity; gateways and ALP (last 4 hours):
bid total 89764 USD, bid side ratio 46%
ask total 103387 USD, ask side ratio 53%

Gateway status at Poloniex (dual side), NuLagoon MLP at Poloniex and several sell side only exchanges

Tue Apr 19 21:01:25 UTC 2016
status of mOD dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BFGMPykfKxXZ1otrCZcsbnTwJjKHPP9dsP -A 2
        "BFGMPykfKxXZ1otrCZcsbnTwJjKHPP9dsP" : {
            "buy" : 15806.96,
            "sell" : 15463.6728
status of zoro dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BJs4YbtaqCmxeHLiR6zzjnZEotYVFAPfMo -A 2
        "BJs4YbtaqCmxeHLiR6zzjnZEotYVFAPfMo" : {
            "buy" : 10749.14,
            "sell" : 15707.7057
status of Cybnate dual side PyBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep B954pkUEdkeT1G5Lq14Cisij5no3RVxHYe -A 20 | grep poloniex -A 2
        "1:NBTBTC:poloniex:LiquidBits" : {
            "buy" : 0.0,
            "sell" : 666.6667
status of Cybnate dual side PyBot at Bittrex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep B954pkUEdkeT1G5Lq14Cisij5no3RVxHYe -A 20 | grep bittrex -A 2
        "1:NBTBTC:bittrex:LiquidBits" : {
            "buy" : 1717.2143,
            "sell" : 600.0
status of NuLagoon dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep BTRnV9uLSPVJw4jn1JMV2Ki2cfFqPYip9o -A 1000 | grep poloniex -A 2 | tail -n 1  | awk -F':' ... and some more stuff
        "1:NBTBTC:poloniex:0.3.2a_1461080924328_b05942" : {
            "buy" : 12000.0,
            "sell" : 0.0
--
        "2:NBTBTC:poloniex:0.3.2a_1461080924328_b05942" : {
            "buy" : 1997.33,
            "sell" : 0.6334
status of huafei sell side only NuBot at bter
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BRUuKfGur7CZSLy65gYUPJUQyQZeT1XQnD -A 2
        "BRUuKfGur7CZSLy65gYUPJUQyQZeT1XQnD" : {
            "buy" : 0.08,
            "sell" : 2025.0529
status of mOD single side NuBot at hitbtc:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep BETwD8nSjtj9ADSvej2na34xmsMYwPRymv -A 1000 | grep hitbtc | tail -n 1 | awk -F':' ...and some more stuff'
        "1:NBTBTC:hitbtc:0.4.1_1461097479835_167440" : {
            "buy" : 0.0,
            "sell" : 500.0
--
        "2:NBTBTC:hitbtc:0.4.1_1461097479835_167440" : {
            "buy" : 0.07,
            "sell" : 1499.936

[mhps]

BTC price is near $450 resistance. I guess the liquidity will reverse soon as a lot of people sell their BTC and get into NBT.

[zoro]

I hope you are right since i am expecting btc passes the 500$ soon

[masterOfDisaster]

A bit late, but…

Liquidity; ALix T1 + gateways (poloniex dual side, numerous sell side):

Wed Apr 20 21:00:04 UTC 2016

status of the gateways in total:
bid total 26647 USD, bid side ratio 42%
ask total 35580 USD, ask side ratio 57%

status of the ALP last 15 minutes:
bid total 66433 USD, bid side ratio 52%
ask total 59400 USD, ask side ratio 47%

status of the ALP last 4 hours:
bid total 66715 USD, bid side ratio 52%
ask total 61504 USD, ask side ratio 47%

status of the total liquidity; gateways and ALP (last 15 minutes):
bid total 93080 USD, bid side ratio 49%
ask total 94980 USD, ask side ratio 50%

status of the total liquidity; gateways and ALP (last 4 hours):
bid total 93362 USD, bid side ratio 49%
ask total 97084 USD, ask side ratio 50%

Gateway status at Poloniex (dual side), NuLagoon MLP at Poloniex and several sell side only exchanges

Wed Apr 20 21:00:01 UTC 2016
status of mOD dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BFGMPykfKxXZ1otrCZcsbnTwJjKHPP9dsP -A 2
        "BFGMPykfKxXZ1otrCZcsbnTwJjKHPP9dsP" : {
            "buy" : 16002.06,
            "sell" : 15463.6728
status of zoro dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BJs4YbtaqCmxeHLiR6zzjnZEotYVFAPfMo -A 2
        "BJs4YbtaqCmxeHLiR6zzjnZEotYVFAPfMo" : {
            "buy" : 10645.15,
            "sell" : 16093.6465
status of Cybnate dual side PyBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep B954pkUEdkeT1G5Lq14Cisij5no3RVxHYe -A 20 | grep poloniex -A 2
        "1:NBTBTC:poloniex:LiquidBits" : {
            "buy" : 0.0,
            "sell" : 0.0
status of NuLagoon dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep BTRnV9uLSPVJw4jn1JMV2Ki2cfFqPYip9o -A 1000 | grep poloniex -A 2 | tail -n 1  | awk -F':' ... and some more stuff
        "1:NBTBTC:poloniex:0.3.2a_1461111645493_8f3d06" : {
            "buy" : 12000.0,
            "sell" : 152.4262
--
        "2:NBTBTC:poloniex:0.3.2a_1461111645493_8f3d06" : {
            "buy" : 2162.04,
            "sell" : 0.0
status of mOD single side NuBot at hitbtc:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep BETwD8nSjtj9ADSvej2na34xmsMYwPRymv -A 200 | grep hitbtc | tail -n 1 | awk -F':' ...and some more stuff'
        "1:NBTBTC:hitbtc:0.4.1_1461097479835_167440" : {
            "buy" : 0.0,
            "sell" : 499.98
--
        "2:NBTBTC:hitbtc:0.4.1_1461097479835_167440" : {
            "buy" : 0.09,
            "sell" : 1499.936

[masterOfDisaster]

Liquidity; ALix T1 + gateways (poloniex dual side, numerous sell side):

Thu Apr 21 20:21:24 UTC 2016

status of the gateways in total:
bid total 18060 USD, bid side ratio 28%
ask total 45870 USD, ask side ratio 71%

status of the ALP last 15 minutes:
bid total 60139 USD, bid side ratio 50%
ask total 57867 USD, ask side ratio 49%

status of the ALP last 4 hours:
bid total 62847 USD, bid side ratio 50%
ask total 61482 USD, ask side ratio 49%

status of the total liquidity; gateways and ALP (last 15 minutes):
bid total 78199 USD, bid side ratio 42%
ask total 103737 USD, ask side ratio 57%

status of the total liquidity; gateways and ALP (last 4 hours):
bid total 80907 USD, bid side ratio 42%
ask total 107352 USD, ask side ratio 57%

Gateway status at Poloniex (dual side), NuLagoon MLP at Poloniex and several sell side only exchanges

Thu Apr 21 20:21:31 UTC 2016
status of mOD dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BFGMPykfKxXZ1otrCZcsbnTwJjKHPP9dsP -A 2
        "BFGMPykfKxXZ1otrCZcsbnTwJjKHPP9dsP" : {
            "buy" : 6381.79,
            "sell" : 25287.0649
status of zoro dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BJs4YbtaqCmxeHLiR6zzjnZEotYVFAPfMo -A 2
        "BJs4YbtaqCmxeHLiR6zzjnZEotYVFAPfMo" : {
            "buy" : 10790.83,
            "sell" : 16093.6465
status of Cybnate dual side PyBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep B954pkUEdkeT1G5Lq14Cisij5no3RVxHYe -A 20 | grep poloniex -A 2
        "1:NBTBTC:poloniex:LiquidBits" : {
            "buy" : 0.0,
            "sell" : 133.3333
status of Cybnate dual side PyBot at Bittrex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep B954pkUEdkeT1G5Lq14Cisij5no3RVxHYe -A 20 | grep bittrex -A 2
        "1:NBTBTC:bittrex:LiquidBits" : {
            "buy" : 1038.0492,
            "sell" : 0.0
status of NuLagoon dual side NuBot at Poloniex:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep BTRnV9uLSPVJw4jn1JMV2Ki2cfFqPYip9o -A 1000 | grep poloniex -A 2 | tail -n 1  | awk -F':' ... and some more stuff
        "1:NBTBTC:poloniex:0.3.2a_1461201767982_f450fc" : {
            "buy" : 12000.0,
            "sell" : 152.4262
--
        "2:NBTBTC:poloniex:0.3.2a_1461201767982_f450fc" : {
            "buy" : 2403.8,
            "sell" : 0.0
status of huafei sell side only NuBot at bter
nud getliquidityinfo B | grep BRUuKfGur7CZSLy65gYUPJUQyQZeT1XQnD -A 2
        "BRUuKfGur7CZSLy65gYUPJUQyQZeT1XQnD" : {
            "buy" : 0.08,
            "sell" : 2025.0529
status of mOD single side NuBot at hitbtc:
nud getliquiditydetails B | grep BETwD8nSjtj9ADSvej2na34xmsMYwPRymv -A 1000 | grep hitbtc | tail -n 1 | awk -F':' ...and some more stuff'
        "1:NBTBTC:hitbtc:0.4.1_1461097479835_167440" : {
            "buy" : 0.0,
            "sell" : 499.98
--
        "2:NBTBTC:hitbtc:0.4.1_1461097479835_167440" : {
            "buy" : 0.09,
            "sell" : 1499.936

[Nagalim]

@masterOfDisaster you should swap 10k nbt for $10k of btc from your gateway.