[Withdrawn] Reduce mint reward to reduce apathetic voting?

[mhps]

I think apathetic people will be apathetic regardless of the minting reward level. To POS coin networks minting reward is a security conerstone. Please experiment a zero-reward POS coin elsewhere. Nu is not a place to try such a drastic new thing to me.

reducing the mint reward by half to 20 NSR per block. The results of the change could be observed and an additional reduction could take place later if shareholders felt it would bring overall improvement based on the results of the first reduction.

It would be hard to tell. People already minting might not stop because of this reward reduction, but new people might choose not to look deeper into Nushares if it only offers Peercoin’s “interest”.

To reduce problems caused by apathetic voters, the correct way I think is marking yes and no votes differently from non-votes.

[Mark]

@creon

… and the whole discussion is made obsolete by just posting another motion instead of participating in shaping the original one.

The same story again.

Controversial proposal that does not solve the real problem.

[masterOfDisaster]

Please experiment a zero-reward POS coin elsewhere. Nu is not a place to try such a drastic new thing to me.

I fully agree - the effects of such a minting reward degradation can barely be simulated, because they are of economical nature.

new people might choose not to look deeper into Nushares if it only offers Peercoin’s “interest”.

And they would need to look deeper to understand the beauty of Nu’s minting process, which is important for so much more than just getting reward for verification and broadcasting of transactions (securing the blockchain).
This can damage the value of Nu to an unknown degree because it can reduce demand for NSR. As the value of Nu is the collateral for the issued NBT, this is a risky way to go.

To reduce problems caused by apathetic voters, the correct way I think is marking yes and no votes differently from non-votes.

Now everything comes full circle.

• exactly that idea was proposed by @Ben and discussed as the “Ternary voting concept”.
• his made @creon think about a way to stick with the binary voting concept (for complexity reasons) and improving it to mitigate the problems not voting minters might cause. He called it “frequency based model”.
• @Nagalim continued that idea with “Frequency voting” -

Reducing the minting reward attempts to mitigate one risk while introducing a new and unknown risk.

There isn’t any doubt that eliminating the minting block reward of 40 NSR would dramatically reduce apathetic voting. The difficulty is that it would have other unintended effects. It would reduce the number of nodes in the network and reduce the minting difficulty.

I have no doubt that reducing the minting reward is in the same category as “eliminating the minting block reward”, just with lesser effects.

So it doesn’t only have an effect for (potential) future holders of NSR (who might refrain from buying NSR), but for current holders as well.
It might not only reduce the number of nodes, but might cause some sell pressure on the market while simultaneously reducing buy pressure. This is a bit hypothetical and I’m not sure about the degree of that effect. But if it has an effect on the overall Nu value, it’s rather a degrading than an increasing one.

Frequency voting could eliminate the risk apathetic voters pose without introducing unknown risks.
The risks seem to be mostly in the realms of coding - holding the Nu development team in high regards I’m not afraid of that!
I haven’t found any arguments against frequency voting so far. The only reason I’ve found why frequency voting hasn’t been followed is this:

[Draft] Frequency Voting

We also talked about making the user votes fuzzy to protect privacy of shareholders (to prevent linking different NSR addresses that vote identically). Your vote would be slightly randomized before it’s put in the block you create. The mean value would be what you voted for, and the variance would be a parameter you choose. I don’t remember we rejected that, but instead I remember we decided it was not a priority.

I’d rather see this being made a priority than changing the minting reward.

Based on what has been discussed so far I recommend to NSR holders to weigh up

• reducing minting reward
• introducing frequency voting

with each other.
You shouldn’t consider voting for this motion, unless you dug deep in

[Draft] Frequency Voting

Motion RIPEMD160 hash: tbc =##=##=##=##=##=## Motion hash starts with this line ##=##=##=##=##=##= The NuTeam will implement frequency voting whereby the wallet client hosted on Nubits.com contains an additional column when voting on motions. This column will be referred to in this motion as 'voting probability' and have user-defined real numbers between 0 and 1 and will be defaulted to zero. Upon minting, a wallet client will roll a random number between 0 and 1 for each motion and if tha…

[Sentinelrv]

@creon

… and the whole discussion is made obsolete by just posting another motion instead of participating in shaping the original one.

The same story again.

Controversial proposal that does not solve the real problem.

This.

If you’re trying to run Nagalim out of here then this is exactly the way to go about it. Avoid participating in the original discussion thread in which shareholders have done all the work over the course of a month and then just post your own alternate solution because you don’t want it. It is an exact repeat of the situation that made Creon disillusioned to the point that he felt the dev team was against him, so he left.

What I want to see is your exact arguments against frequency voting. I still haven’t seen you post any arguments against it, only that you’re not in favor of it and that it might make motions pass faster. What about all the simulations that Nagalim has run? Please don’t ignore all the work that has been done. Participate in the original thread and post your real arguments for why you believe frequency voting isn’t the way to go. If your arguments are convincing then I’m sure shareholders will look for a different solution.

You may not think that you’re ignoring or avoiding anything, but it really appears that way, because you haven’t even attempted to discuss and argue this matter with Nagalim and other shareholders. I think that once you have made your arguments in the existing thread and actually had a back and forth discussion about the positives and negatives of that approach, then you should provide your alternate solution. If you post your draft before you actually have a real discussion about Nagalim’s approach then you risk being perceived as ignoring or not caring about the contributions of shareholders.

Nobody wants to have to add another name to this list…

Lost community members

Why did he leave? I noticed his absence, but wasn't sure what happened. I'm a little behind on certain things because of Summer. He doesn't seem to be active on Reddit either.

[Ben]

Is there an accurate way for the protocol to differentiate between an apathetic minter and a minter that doesn’t agree with a proposal or proposals?

Peercoin’s dynamic block reward is interesting, so if there was a way to inform the protocol of the number of minters that are actively engaged in shareholder matters, the Nu block reward could be increased or decreased within some range.

More engaged voters == higher block reward
Fewer engaged voters == reduced block reward

My hunch is that this is data that may be very difficult to actually determine, but with the large number of smart folks in the community, perhaps there’s a way to provably calculate the ratio.

---

Edit: @masterOfDisaster’s comment came in during the time that I had started writing my original comment and when I posted this, so I had not read it yet. Upon reflection I’m swayed by his argument that introducing a modification to the reward calculation has a non-trivial risk of negatively affecting the network.

I also agree that “vote fuzzing” should be a higher priority item than any modifications to the minting reward system (and probably a mid to high priority, in general).

[Nagalim]

Wouldn’t that just lead to people voting on random motions to get the extra reward?

[Ben]

Wouldn’t that just lead to people voting on random motions to get the extra reward?

Ways of gaming the system had not yet entered my thought process but you’re right. This would be a non-starter if that attack vector wasn’t mitigated (presuming that the idea had any legitimate use, to begin with).

[mhps]

And they would need to look deeper to understand the beauty of Nu’s minting process,

I know. I was talking about new people facing an army of 700 alt coins. If there is a consensus that Nu is going to take off, then you need no mintng reward, because everyone will pile into Nushares. When Nu needs support it is at times when it is small, weak, not well-know, filling many with doubt. Nu needs any support it can get. 2-3% inflation is appropriate.

Now everything comes full circle.

The way it is. It’s an upward spiral.

[tomjoad]

What I want to see is your exact arguments against frequency voting. I still haven’t seen you post any arguments against it, only that you’re not in favor of it and that it might make motions pass faster.

This is an interesting point to me and it is reaching a point where shareholders should discuss it. Does Jordan Lee have an obligation to not only propose motions he is in favor of, but also post detailed analysis of every motion he is not in favor of? If so, why? I’ve been very puzzled over the last few weeks that a victimization culture is emerging where users are acting hurt if one large NuShareholder isn’t providing his input. We are a decentralized project that can authorize users like Jordan to complete work on our behalf; there is no centralized control that can dictate the direction of the network at their will. Jordan is not being compensated by the Nu network much (or at all) at this point as far as I’m aware, as B&C Exchange funding is paying him for his time. He should feel free to propose Nu motions and comment where he likes without shareholders being offended.

The whole point of the motion system in Nu is that every shareholder is free to propose their own motion without being intimidated into silence, and if it passes we can be certain that the majority of the financial stake in the network supports it. It’s pure democracy that can’t be interrupted. If you want your idea added to the network, campaign to other shareholders on its merits (as @Nagalim has done well with his supporting data on frequency voting) and avoid attributing other factors (such as the absence of a certain shareholder opinion) to its current popularity levels.

Nobody wants to have to add another name to this list…

Creon made his own choice to leave and I think this list is a bit dramatic to keep linking to. It is 100% guaranteed we will lose other community members in the future due to a frustration that their ideas aren’t accepted by the majority of shareholders. Those who are able to accept the reality that we can’t always get our way within Nu will succeed here, and the others will leave. Our voting system ensures only the most widely-supported ideas will pass. Based on the comments above so far, I expect that the draft motion Jordan created with my comments will likely not pass, and I’m perfectly okay with that if shareholders decide it is unworthy of inclusion in our network.

[JordanLee]

@creon

… and the whole discussion is made obsolete by just posting another motion instead of participating in shaping the original one.

The same story again.

Controversial proposal that does not solve the real problem.

@creon was brilliant in the solutions he devised, but he was rather emotional and negative in his communications as well. The dialog on this forum is generally very professional and focused on understanding and formulating solutions to complex issues and needs. This soft attribute brings a lot of value to the Nu network. It is in stark contrast to the quality of dialog occurring on other forums, such as bitsharestalk.org. So let’s stay focused on politely discussing technical problems and their solutions.

The discussion @Nagalim is leading in the frequency voting thread is only obsolete if forum participants and shareholders agree it is. I haven’t seen any indication of such a consensus. My original post above can’t make it obsolete. Rather, it enriches the dialog surrounding the issue of apathetic voting, by offering a completely different approach to resolving it. Because it is a completely different approach with an implementation unrelated to the implementation @Nagalim has proposed, it requires a separate and distinct motion, as opposed to negotiation about the specifics of Nagalim’s proposal.

One of the beautiful features of Peershares is that there is no barrier to proposal of motions. Absolutely anyone can propose one and the network permits as many motion proposals as people want to make. So why should I be made to feel like I’ve done something inappropriate by proposing a solution to a problem forum participants care about? It would be healthy for the network to see more motions, not less. Let there be a rich and diverse dialog so no potential solution is overlooked.

My proposal is controversial, but it does solve the real problem of apathetic voting. The question at hand is whether the solution creates more problems than other solutions, or more problems than it solves. So let people that want to discuss that do so.

[JordanLee]

Avoid participating in the original discussion thread in which shareholders have done all the work over the course of a month and then just post your own alternate solution because you don’t want it.

I didn’t participate initially because I didn’t believe the approach should be implemented and my time is very limited. Once it became apparent there is considerable support for frequency voting, I facilitated it by offering a preliminary estimate and offering some information about availability of developers to implement it. As I understand it, my obligations in this matter are limited to this kind of facilitation.

While I don’t think I am obligated to detail the strengths and weaknesses of frequency voting, I did mention this:

[Draft] Frequency Voting

I don’t favour frequency voting. It seems like a solution to a problem we don’t have. It is common for uncontroversial motions and grants to get 80% support in a thousand block period. Frequency voting would make it easier for motions and grants to pass. I think the grants and motions that have good support are passing.

Perhaps I should elaborate on frequency voting making it easier for motions and grants to pass, because it may not be clear what I meant. This isn’t a good thing, and poses a security risk. If a custodial grant has 37% explicit support (edited to correct an error), and there is 40% apathetic voting, it passes. That is a risk. Frequency voting will increase the incidence of apathetic voting. Using a data feed is still expressing a preference about how the network is run, and is quite different than frequency voting in my opinion.

[Nagalim]

Mint rewards take money from non-minters and gives it to minters. As we are all about making money here, that can be considered a revenue stream. What’s more, it increases the mint difficulty, a boon for the security in the network. The only thing increasing mint rewards introduces is more apathy in the system. Therefore, it is in our best interest to increase the mint reward just below the point where we start having problems passing motions. As we are not having problems now, now is the time to increase mint rewards, not decrease them.

Frequency voting greatly increases the potential for increasing the mint reward further, possibly by orders of magnitude. When we hybridize frequency voting with data feeds, we can increase it even further, thereby increasing revenue, security, and marketing.

If a custodial grant has 30% explicit support, and there is 40% apathetic voting, it passes. That is a risk.

No it’s not. With 40% apathy we’d need over 80% of non-apathetic voters to be voting for a motion for it to pass. That would cripple the network’s ability to make controversial decisions. If 50% of self-declared non-apathetic voters vote for a motion, it should pass. That is not a risk.

If I have a network with 10000 people where 1500 want something , 500 don’t and 8000 don’t care, why is that any less powerful of a consensus than a network with 2000 people where 1500 want something and 500 don’t? All you’re doing is stripping the 8000 who don’t care out of the system.

Using a data feed is still expressing a preference about how the network is run

As I’ve tried to indicate, we can combine frequency voting and data feeds such that you can subscribe to a group of data feeds instead of a single one. That would vastly increase the decentralization and security of semi-apathetic voting.

[Mark]

Sorry if my words sounded harsh. I am not a native speaker. Keep it in mind when you read my posts.

You are the architect of Nu and when a major change with huge impact on the voting system is offered such as Frequency Voting, I need to hear your opinion and/or the opinion of sigmike before deciding how to vote. I treat my duties as a shareholder responsibly and I do not want to vote for before I heard your or sigmike’s arguments against.

[masterOfDisaster]

Does Jordan Lee have an obligation to not only propose motions he is in favor of, but also post detailed analysis of every motion he is not in favor of?

I don’t see such an obligation.
But creating another motion instead of participating in shaping the original one is not the style I favour, either.
I find it not as helpful as discussing the original matter, searching for benefits of it, but even more important trying to game it, abuse it, find drawbacks.

Creating a different motion is like hard forking a discussion after a long way where two equally big parties don’t find consensus.
I don’t that phase reached in the frequency voting thread.
I’m not saying we don’t need this motion here. I just think it’s too early for it and now we need to follow and participate in two discussions that aim to solve the same problem.

The benefits of frequency voting have been made quite clear and I still haven’t seen sound arguments against it.
The simulations indicate that frequency voting is helpful and hard to game.

If this is true:

I don’t favour frequency voting. It seems like a solution to a problem we don’t have.

we don’t need to mess with the minting reward either - because reducing the mining reward would seem like a solution to a problem we don’t have.

In return reducing the minting reward introduces a potential economical risk to the Nu network:

I have no doubt that reducing the minting reward is in the same category as “eliminating the minting block reward”, just with lesser effects.

So it doesn’t only have an effect for (potential) future holders of NSR (who might refrain from buying NSR), but for current holders as well.It might not only reduce the number of nodes, but might cause some sell pressure on the market while simultaneously reducing buy pressure. This is a bit hypothetical and I’m not sure about the degree of that effect. But if it has an effect on the overall Nu value, it’s rather a degrading than an increasing one.

which frequency voting does not pose.

I was asking for the reasons against frequency voting

[Draft] Frequency Voting

About a year ago sigmike and spoke in detail about something quite similar. We spoke about using the blockchain record as a basis for populating votes. We decided against it.

What have been the reasons? @Nagalim’s simulations indicate that security wise Nu doesn’t need to fear drawbacks from frequency voting, but can, depending on the voting apathy, profit big time from it.Nothing would be worse for Nu than not being able to get votings through because of minter’s voting apathy.

but didn’t get an answer.

@Sentinelrv was asking @sigmike

[Draft] Frequency Voting

would you also be able to elaborate on why you and Jordan decided against something similar?

I think Jordan is talking about 2 different things:
[…]
I don’t remember we rejected that, but instead I remember we decided it was not a priority.

and got an answer that makes me wonder - wouldn’t it have been less effort to chime in the discussion about frequency voting than creating a draft for a different solution to a problem that Nu might face in the future?

I don’t want to victimize anybody.
I have big respect for this whole community and for what @JordanLee designed and implemented.
I just don’t understand…

[zoro]

the title has a [Draft] and a question!
thus i would like, as a novice NU user, to read the pros and cons of such a proposal without the
accusation talk that i see with politicians during an election period!
thank you!

[crypto_coiner]

When Nu needs support it is at times when it is small, weak, not well-know, filling many with doubt. Nu needs any support it can get. 2-3% inflation is appropriate.

good point, I think.

[crypto_coiner]

The reply from @masterOfDisaster here, to me as a nushareholder seems also sound–

[cryptog]

The per block mint reward shall be reduced from 40 NSR to 20 NSR per block.

I do not see personally how such a reduction can help encourage apathetic minters to take responsibility and get really involved in studying carefully each vote before actually voting.
But more fundamentally, what is the concrete issue with apathetic voting?
Can someone clearly articulate it? I would like to make sure we are not trying to solve a false problem.

[Nagalim]

We want many minters for PoS security but we only want well informed minters for voting. The question is how to maintain a high PoS security while allowing for a distributed consensus that is both powerful and efficient. If a network has 1500 people who want something, 500 who don’t, and 8000 who don’t care, what should the system do? Currently, the answer is nothing and the system will become stagnant. With 0 mint we kick the 8000 out for both voting and security. With freq voting we attempt to ignore the 8000 for voting while still keeping them for security.

[mhps]

@cryptog’s question is if there is a concrete case to solve the issue now. From recent important issue voting, the percentage of yes in the last 100 blocks often reached above 50%, which seemed to suggest a low apathetic rate.

I feel that apathetic minters is an issue but not an urgent one.