[obsolete] Motion to link reputed signers reward to B&C exchange revenue

[Nagalim]

We can distribute btc or whatever like this:

Put up a motion instituting a daily btc reward that will be rewarded to the signer who receives the most signer rewards (I.e. votes) for the day. Then, once that’s up and running, vote for 0 BKS reward. No developer changes necessary.

How about 2 signer reward votes, one for the BKS reward and one for the bkc reward? I don’t like the signer reward being bkc, but a lot of people do and it would make sense to put it to vote.

Edit: Sigmike already mentioned voting on both and laid out the difficulties associated with that. Possible, but a little messy.

[Sabreiib]

1)Reward signers with BKS is being developed by Sigmike, it is the default procedure.

2. We always need a custodian to sell BKC for BTC, and dispatch BTC manually. This procedure should be the default for dividend dispatching when basic function is ready.

So that’s enough. We BKS holders can vote a Zero BKS reward and arrange a custodian to send a portion of BTC revenue to signers whose BKS addresses is public, or vice versa: just issuing new BKS.

My last advice is for BKS holders: be very cautious of diluting yourselves if you care about your own investment.

[masterOfDisaster]

I consider the outcome of the discussion useful even if not everybody might be pleased with signers being paid with BKS.
Viewed from a little distance it makes a lot of sense:

• signers do an existential job just like the minters who get rewarded with BKS
• the coinstake mechanism is already existing and only needs to be adjusted

[mhps]

signers do an existential job just like the minters who get rewarded with BKS

The added recurring cost of being a signer compared with being a minter is basically the server cost, which is about $25/mo. I think the reward should reflect it. Signers shouldn’t expect to get rich by signing.

[masterOfDisaster]

The added recurring cost of being a signer compared with being a minter is basically the server cost, which is about $25/mo

The reward needs to consider maintaining the server (time), calculatory costs for the deposited security and the risk of operating all the stuff without being compensated due to lack of reputation.
Signers shouldn’t expect to get rich by signing, right, but they won’t do it if they need to invest more than they earn from the compensation.

Luckily BKS holders have an incentive to do the signer job (because it’s crucial for the success of the company they own shares of) and some might already have some reputation before they even start a signing operation.
I’m speaking of people who already have a track record from the Nu network who now are BKS holders.

So the compensation won’t need to be far above the server costs to attract some signers, I guess.
We’ll see

[Sabreiib]

The 101 delegates of bitshare are getting rich and ordinary Bts holders are being robbed.

If we cannot avoid this, may I call the signer reward factor as “stupidness index” of bks holders? Either overpay or underpay Signers is stupid. That may gauge the avarage IQ of shareholders. As low as BTS community? I believe we can vote a proper value.

One big difference between minting reward and signers reward is that every shareholder can mint and avoid being diluted but only 20 signers while BKS holders may become hundreds/thousands.

[mhps]

calculatory costs for the deposited security

What is this?

the risk of operating all the stuff without being compensated due to lack of reputation

You are double counting “all the stuff” — “all the stuff” is what we are talking about.

Anyway I think the signing setup for a BCE signer is slightly more complicated than a TLLP / ALP ooperator setup. It’s basically a bot which is supposed to run automatically once set up, until manual upgrade. Thet initial set up may well take time and effort, but in the long term it should not take a lot of attention.

[masterOfDisaster]

What is this?

Calculactory costs are costs that not necessarily apply, but that need to be considered like calculatory costs of a shop someone owns and uses instead of renting it to someone else.
The calculatory cost of using the own shop is the money that is not earned for renting it to someone else.

The same applies to the security deposit. Whether or not the deposited BKS need to be purchased just because of the signer job is not important for the calculatory cost; the money is frozen, minting can’t be cone with the BKS, selling them isn’t possible in this state. his creates calculatory costs.

setup for a BCE signer is slightly more complicated than a TLLP / ALP ooperator

The server needs to be way bigger. Imagine a signer doing the job for BTC, LTC and DOGE. All blockchains need to be on the file system. You need more complex backup strategies, because you don’t want to sync the blockchains each time you reinstall the server. Taking a snapshot of the blockchain while the Bitcoin wallet is running is not that easy - is it?
It might require more skill, money and regular maintenance.

[mhps]

Calculactory costs

Can you give a demo of a hypothetical signer’s calculactory costs?

The server needs to be way bigger.

It can’t be more expensive than running another signer’s rig in hot stand-by mode, which is nother $20/mo ?

How often do you expect recurring reinstall to happen anyway? Once a month ? Doesn’t sound like a stable system. Periodical restart maybe. Server re-install?

[masterOfDisaster]

Can you give a demo of a hypothetical signer’s calculactory costs?

Deposit of 250 BKS required. Market value 1000 NBT.
No minting reward: some percent per year (depending on the minting rate)
No chance to sell the BKS at 1000 NBT and earn money (e.g. for providing liquidity for Nu, investing in the traditional stock market etc.). This amount highly depends on the investment profile and risk; can very well be several percent per year.
No chance to sell the BKS while they are used as security deposit: no way to sell them in case BKS demand and price spikes. Depends on the (temporary) gains of BKS value.

I can only give you a rough estimation of the calculatory costs in the range of “several” to “quite many” percent per year, because it depends on so many factors.
But the bigger the total amount of deposited security the bigger the calculatory costs.

All that should be considered by people applying to a signer position.

It can’t be more expensive than running […]

I don’t know how difficult it will really be to run a “signer” server. I wouldn’t have dared to try that with a pool server.
So I might be the wrong person to assess the technical complexity and effort of such operation
…it matches my skill level to run some liquidity pool bots

[cryptog]

The 101 delegates of bitshare are getting rich and ordinary Bts holders are being robbed.

any evidence for that?

[mhps]

Deposit of 250 BKS required. Market value 1000 NBT.

Except for not being able to mint ( ~5% reward pa), this cost is about the same as committing the BKS to minting. That was what I meant.

I don’t know how difficult it will really be to run a “signer” server.

From here, and posts leading to it, the recurring cost is mostly renting the VPS and leaving it humming.

[masterOfDisaster]

Except for not being able to mint ( ~5% reward pa), this cost is about the same as committing the BKS to minting

Nope, in fact the lost minting reward is real cost. Trapped funds still generate calculatory costs, because you can’t do with them what you might want to do.

[Sabreiib]

So Now I have a long time idle Mac Machine, and some BKS. Internet access is 10M optical, alreasy paid. Can I apply a reputed signer? What kind of CPU required?Dual or Quad cores?

I think the signers employee market determined by Supply and Demand. When a company kick start, we shareholders had better to do something by ourselves. If more than 10 BKS holders wanna become signers, enough.

[Sabreiib]

Bitshare dumped every month, as punctual as women’s period. BitShares Asset Exchange delivery date is fixed.
101 delegates are rewarded with extra BTS, am I right?

[masterOfDisaster]

shareholders had better to do something by ourselves. If more than 10 BKS holders wanna become signers, enough.

Exactly this is what I expect to happen
Their economical incentive to provide the exchange with signers is so big that the calculatory costs of doing that will likely be dwarfed by it

[Sabreiib]

When B&C begin to work, I’ll try to become a reputed signer and will know how much it will cost me.

[masterOfDisaster]

So Now I have a long time idle Mac Machine, and some BKS. Internet access is 10M optical, alreasy paid. Can I apply a reputed signer?

It’s convenient for you if you only have to face sunken costs.
That doesn’t make my calculation wrong, though

[mhps]

Trapped funds still generate calculatory costs, because you can’t do with them what you might want to do.

If one wants to pull the deposit and be off-line from the pool of available signers for a month, why is it not possible?
Plus it is possible that the shareholders waive the deposite for those candidates they really want.
Anyway I don’t think calculatory cost is a serious concern.

[masterOfDisaster]

If one wants to pull the deposit and be off-line from the pool of available signers for a month

I don’t understand a signer’s position as something than can be left and resumed that easy.
What would you do if a significant amount of signers would leave that way?
How to get the funds in the multi signature addresses moved then?
No, signing needs to be a reliable ongoing job.

I don’t think calculatory cost is a serious concern.

No, it isn’t - but a calculatory concern.
I think I’m going to stop here. The point is clear and it’s obviously no reason that can stop someone from applying to a signer’s job.