[obsolete] Motion to link reputed signers reward to B&C exchange revenue

[masterOfDisaster]

I know @BCExchange said that all of the proceeds are supposed to be sent to shareholders, however I don’t agree with that. I believe signer expenses should only be taken from our revenue from BlockCredit sales. What do others think about this?

There’s an interesting discussion going on about this very topic:

[B&C] Paying reputed signers

Pay for everything with BKS? Yah, I guess you're right, the developers don't want BKS or BKC, they want BTC or NBT. Though you're also right that we don't want to have a standing reserve at all times, just when we have a specific project in mind. Alright, I concede that either a BKC/NBT peg is not economically viable or that we have not experienced regular B&C operation enough to hypothesize a situation in which it would be viable. At the very least this discussion has helped me understan…

It looks like the design of BCE deals with signer reward in BKS. That would enable to distribute all of the proceeds to be sent to shareholders.

There are some who’d like to take a part of the revenue from BKC sale. That would interfere with the claim to distribute all of the proceeds to be sent to shareholders.

And there are some who think it’s easiest to have a signer reward in BKC. That would enable to distribute all of the proceeds to be sent to shareholders.

When rewarding signers with either BTC or BKC you pay with a share from the revenue.
When rewarding signers with either BKS you pay with a share from the organization.

I’m clearly in favour of using revenue for that and if I had to choose between BTC and BKC, I’d take BKC for reasons given in the linked thread.

[masterOfDisaster]

I’m also not a fan of hard coding rates, but it might make sense for the first few months (as per design?) and then add this feature

If the signer reward were a fixed amount of BKC per block the signers would compete for it, because the total signer reward is designed to be distributed between signers (according to their reputation: page 14, chapter “Reputed signer incentives”).
The first signer would get the complete reward, once the second is there, they need to share it and so forth.
This would help kickstarting the signer operation.
In case the reward would be insufficient to attract the total number of signers competing for positions adjusting the BKC per block could do the trick.

[Sabreiib]

As @Nagalim said, Would be a continuous blockchain vote for the BKS signer reward amount.

Yes we can pass a motion which modifies the reward level, and sigmike begin to work on a new client version, and so on, that’s not good.I want the reward being adjusted by vote like fee vote or parking rate.

Is that posssible that dev team says “No, the signers reward rate is hard coded in software, and cannot be modified by shareholders just like minting reward.”

[sigmike]

The reputed signer reward amount will be decided by vote. That’s what Jordan replied when I asked: https://bitbucket.org/JordanLeePeershares/bcexchange/issues/16/reputed-signer-reward#comment-20666093

[Sabreiib]

That’s great! @sigmike !

It seems this motion not needed.

One more thing, I am sure that some BKS holders want to reward reputed signers with BTC revenue from BKC sale, Can we vote a ratio to split our revenue into three categories?

1. dividend
2. reputed signers
3. miscellaneous fund for software development & Marketing and share repurchase

I don’t think all BKS holders are so greedy and short sighted to fetch 100% revenue for dividend. Of course we can vote any item in a motion, but it will be tedious work. Is it possible to automatically arrange our revenue by voting a distribution like 60:20:20 so that our revenue naturally flows into these three categories?

Share repurchase is common in real world, our revenue can be used to buy BKS on free market to protect shareholders from price drop and reward employees with those BKS in future.

To conclude, we may have two procedures:

1. issue new BKS or spend repurchased shares to reward signers
2. distribute BTC revenue to them

It is very convenient to switch from one to the other or keep both at same time . For example, we vote for 0 BKS reward and 30% BTC revenue to our signers. In real world, both FIAT and shares are suitable to reward employees.

[Nagalim]

We can distribute btc or whatever like this:

Put up a motion instituting a daily btc reward that will be rewarded to the signer who receives the most signer rewards (I.e. votes) for the day. Then, once that’s up and running, vote for 0 BKS reward. No developer changes necessary.

How about 2 signer reward votes, one for the BKS reward and one for the bkc reward? I don’t like the signer reward being bkc, but a lot of people do and it would make sense to put it to vote.

Edit: Sigmike already mentioned voting on both and laid out the difficulties associated with that. Possible, but a little messy.

[Sabreiib]

1)Reward signers with BKS is being developed by Sigmike, it is the default procedure.

2. We always need a custodian to sell BKC for BTC, and dispatch BTC manually. This procedure should be the default for dividend dispatching when basic function is ready.

So that’s enough. We BKS holders can vote a Zero BKS reward and arrange a custodian to send a portion of BTC revenue to signers whose BKS addresses is public, or vice versa: just issuing new BKS.

My last advice is for BKS holders: be very cautious of diluting yourselves if you care about your own investment.

[masterOfDisaster]

I consider the outcome of the discussion useful even if not everybody might be pleased with signers being paid with BKS.
Viewed from a little distance it makes a lot of sense:

• signers do an existential job just like the minters who get rewarded with BKS
• the coinstake mechanism is already existing and only needs to be adjusted

[mhps]

signers do an existential job just like the minters who get rewarded with BKS

The added recurring cost of being a signer compared with being a minter is basically the server cost, which is about $25/mo. I think the reward should reflect it. Signers shouldn’t expect to get rich by signing.

[masterOfDisaster]

The added recurring cost of being a signer compared with being a minter is basically the server cost, which is about $25/mo

The reward needs to consider maintaining the server (time), calculatory costs for the deposited security and the risk of operating all the stuff without being compensated due to lack of reputation.
Signers shouldn’t expect to get rich by signing, right, but they won’t do it if they need to invest more than they earn from the compensation.

Luckily BKS holders have an incentive to do the signer job (because it’s crucial for the success of the company they own shares of) and some might already have some reputation before they even start a signing operation.
I’m speaking of people who already have a track record from the Nu network who now are BKS holders.

So the compensation won’t need to be far above the server costs to attract some signers, I guess.
We’ll see

[Sabreiib]

The 101 delegates of bitshare are getting rich and ordinary Bts holders are being robbed.

If we cannot avoid this, may I call the signer reward factor as “stupidness index” of bks holders? Either overpay or underpay Signers is stupid. That may gauge the avarage IQ of shareholders. As low as BTS community? I believe we can vote a proper value.

One big difference between minting reward and signers reward is that every shareholder can mint and avoid being diluted but only 20 signers while BKS holders may become hundreds/thousands.

[mhps]

calculatory costs for the deposited security

What is this?

the risk of operating all the stuff without being compensated due to lack of reputation

You are double counting “all the stuff” — “all the stuff” is what we are talking about.

Anyway I think the signing setup for a BCE signer is slightly more complicated than a TLLP / ALP ooperator setup. It’s basically a bot which is supposed to run automatically once set up, until manual upgrade. Thet initial set up may well take time and effort, but in the long term it should not take a lot of attention.

[masterOfDisaster]

What is this?

Calculactory costs are costs that not necessarily apply, but that need to be considered like calculatory costs of a shop someone owns and uses instead of renting it to someone else.
The calculatory cost of using the own shop is the money that is not earned for renting it to someone else.

The same applies to the security deposit. Whether or not the deposited BKS need to be purchased just because of the signer job is not important for the calculatory cost; the money is frozen, minting can’t be cone with the BKS, selling them isn’t possible in this state. his creates calculatory costs.

setup for a BCE signer is slightly more complicated than a TLLP / ALP ooperator

The server needs to be way bigger. Imagine a signer doing the job for BTC, LTC and DOGE. All blockchains need to be on the file system. You need more complex backup strategies, because you don’t want to sync the blockchains each time you reinstall the server. Taking a snapshot of the blockchain while the Bitcoin wallet is running is not that easy - is it?
It might require more skill, money and regular maintenance.

[mhps]

Calculactory costs

Can you give a demo of a hypothetical signer’s calculactory costs?

The server needs to be way bigger.

It can’t be more expensive than running another signer’s rig in hot stand-by mode, which is nother $20/mo ?

How often do you expect recurring reinstall to happen anyway? Once a month ? Doesn’t sound like a stable system. Periodical restart maybe. Server re-install?

[masterOfDisaster]

Can you give a demo of a hypothetical signer’s calculactory costs?

Deposit of 250 BKS required. Market value 1000 NBT.
No minting reward: some percent per year (depending on the minting rate)
No chance to sell the BKS at 1000 NBT and earn money (e.g. for providing liquidity for Nu, investing in the traditional stock market etc.). This amount highly depends on the investment profile and risk; can very well be several percent per year.
No chance to sell the BKS while they are used as security deposit: no way to sell them in case BKS demand and price spikes. Depends on the (temporary) gains of BKS value.

I can only give you a rough estimation of the calculatory costs in the range of “several” to “quite many” percent per year, because it depends on so many factors.
But the bigger the total amount of deposited security the bigger the calculatory costs.

All that should be considered by people applying to a signer position.

It can’t be more expensive than running […]

I don’t know how difficult it will really be to run a “signer” server. I wouldn’t have dared to try that with a pool server.
So I might be the wrong person to assess the technical complexity and effort of such operation
…it matches my skill level to run some liquidity pool bots

[cryptog]

The 101 delegates of bitshare are getting rich and ordinary Bts holders are being robbed.

any evidence for that?

[mhps]

Deposit of 250 BKS required. Market value 1000 NBT.

Except for not being able to mint ( ~5% reward pa), this cost is about the same as committing the BKS to minting. That was what I meant.

I don’t know how difficult it will really be to run a “signer” server.

From here, and posts leading to it, the recurring cost is mostly renting the VPS and leaving it humming.

[masterOfDisaster]

Except for not being able to mint ( ~5% reward pa), this cost is about the same as committing the BKS to minting

Nope, in fact the lost minting reward is real cost. Trapped funds still generate calculatory costs, because you can’t do with them what you might want to do.

[Sabreiib]

So Now I have a long time idle Mac Machine, and some BKS. Internet access is 10M optical, alreasy paid. Can I apply a reputed signer? What kind of CPU required?Dual or Quad cores?

I think the signers employee market determined by Supply and Demand. When a company kick start, we shareholders had better to do something by ourselves. If more than 10 BKS holders wanna become signers, enough.

[Sabreiib]

Bitshare dumped every month, as punctual as women’s period. BitShares Asset Exchange delivery date is fixed.
101 delegates are rewarded with extra BTS, am I right?